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thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: William the Red


Bill,[sign in to see URL] should undervalue Gerberoi and Robert Curthose's [sign in to see URL] is necessary also not to undervalue even more the Revolt of the Earls in 1075 in [sign in to see URL] was the decisive event which made the counter-revolutionaries think that the Conqueror was [sign in to see URL] two reasons,firstly it was not the Conqueror who suppressed it,Odo and Lanfranc were responsible for that and secondly the leader of the operation,Ralph de Gael escaped and in alliance with The Frankish King Philippe 1,defeated the Conqueror at Dol a year later when he correctly attacked to settle accounts with de [sign in to see URL] was the Conqueror's first defeat on the battlefield since [sign in to see URL]'s also the case that some people believe the execution of Earl Waltheof for participating in the revolt of 1075 was a tactical error by the Conqueror which may have caused additional problems with Edgar Aethling and as a result [sign in to see URL],I think the Conqueror got it right but its by no means clear cut and open to [sign in to see URL] was a peak but it would be perilous to ignore 'the climb' that reached it.
John G.,Vice-Chairperson (personal capacity)
Aug/14/2004, 4:35 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: William the Red


I would go a bit further than Sammy or John on the subject of Edgar and his relationship to the Conqueror,the Red and Robert Courtheuse.
Edgar is surely at the centre of things post-1066 due to the fact that he is the legit heir to the kingdom of Angleland through the House of [sign in to see URL] the counter-revolutonary uprising of 1069-70 and its intersection with the Danish invasion,Edgar was acclaimed as "the real king" of Angleland by many of the those who opposed the [sign in to see URL] was the young man that Godwineson usurped because his age in 1066 circa 10 made him unviable as a popular [sign in to see URL] clear that the reception he got in 1069-70 from the counter-revolutionaries proves that Godwineson's "under-age" claim had no foundation in reality.
Its obvious,to me at least,that the Conqueror and the Red knew that Edgar's claim to rule was valid according to the House of Cerdig [sign in to see URL] would clearly generate serious religious problems in the event of Edgar's death directly or indirectly linked to either of [sign in to see URL] were acutely aware of the significance of their immortal souls in the [sign in to see URL] was someone that they had to live with and treat very [sign in to see URL] they did with [sign in to see URL] Conqueror trusted him in Apulia with a company of knights an the Red trusted him in Scotland in 1097 in the battle with Donalbane and its [sign in to see URL] both cases The Norman Revolution 1066-1100 was going through an upswing.
In the times of downswing its [sign in to see URL] was one such downswing that possibly explains why when dying, he Conqueror ordered the release of Morcar,after his father's death the Red had him promptly [sign in to see URL] is the central reason for that and his relationship to Robert [sign in to see URL] who backed Edgar after Hastings,might have joined up with him and with Courheuse (always game for destablisation) and hatched a serious counter-revolutionary plot against the [sign in to see URL] could have seen a new Anglo-Saxon-Dane uprising combined with Odo and Courtheuse's activities which could have severed Angleland from Normandy.

CT (personal capacity)
Aug/17/2004, 9:42 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
ginia Profile
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Re: William the Red


Surely you don't beleive all that rubbish about loyal subjects of the king, and noble peasants performing altruistic acts of service and honour? They were poor ,and mean in all senses of the word , and like all dirt-poor people they resented anyone with more than they. The loudness of the cheers as the nobility rode by was governed by the amount of copper coins thrown at them .The reason they carried Rufus back to Winchester was more likely to have been because they were terrified it might be thought that they played some part in his death, and also because there was always the hope that would be some sort of a reward for their information . Add to this the fact that as tenants of the crown [foresters all lived on crown land -freezing in the middle of a vast forest and starving whilst surrounded by easily caught game with salmon in the rivers ] they could maybe gain a few favours for themselves. The poorer you are the meaner you are. Do not judge yesterday by the standards of today
Aug/18/2004, 7:15 am Link to this post Send Email to ginia   Send PM to ginia
 
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Re: William the Red


P.S. In case you think I am opinionated on the subject of Rufus, I was born in Lyndhurst moved to Ringwood when I was seven and went to school at Brockenhurst then I came to Australia when I was 20 and I m simply amazed that subjects we were raised on ,have become a matter of interest to anyone at all !!! BTW my grandmother's maiden name was Forrester.
Aug/18/2004, 7:25 am Link to this post Send Email to ginia   Send PM to ginia
 
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Re: William the Red


[sign in to see URL]. by the way ---why on earth would anyone living off very rich land ,like anybody who came and took it off them and turned it into private property , with death penalties and WORSE for trespassing and taking of game and firewood . By worse I mean punishment of family too--- when the nobility did not even speak their language. Treaties with other nobles in other countries did not make Rufus a good king of England. Being a little more sympathetic to the existing population who took food and warmth as their birthright , and a little less greediness over how big his hunting park was, might just have earned him a little respect --moreso if he had learned two words of their language. He was not a nice man or a good king!!!!! Why are you bothering with him?
Aug/21/2004, 6:07 am Link to this post Send Email to ginia   Send PM to ginia
 
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Re: William the Red


Our Forum are bothering with him ginia because of reasons mentioned in the posting on this Board headed "In Defence of The Norman Revolution".Whatever spin you want to put on events another interpretation is just as plausible or more [sign in to see URL] seem to assume that money buys [sign in to see URL],not in the Red's [sign in to see URL] after becoming king of Angleland he promised tax cuts to the Anglo-Saxon-Danes which due to the counter-revolutionary activity of Odo et alia he was forced to withdraw to raise troop levies in [sign in to see URL] Anglo-Saxon-Dane levies were of great assistance in suppressing the counter-revolution despite losing their tax cuts.
The peasants in the forest who recovered the Red's body were in no fear of being collared for the crime because everyone on the hunt had fled the [sign in to see URL] did it because the Red was their Duke-King and that meant something very positive for them as well as being the leader that,as they believed,was appointed by God through "Holy Mother Church*.
It's easy as you seem to be doing to apply today's tired cynicism to previous [sign in to see URL] is in my view better and more satisfying to always look closely at the historical [sign in to see URL]'s good to know also that people in the locality of the Red's assassination know the [sign in to see URL],the majority of the rest of the world is being told by most of today's historians and teachers that his death was a "hunting accident".That needs to be changed.

CT (personal capacity)
Aug/22/2004, 6:58 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: William the Red


All:
My favourite Brockenhurst story is on that July afternoon in 1099 when the Red was dining there and got a message read to him by Ranulph Flambard that counter-revolutionaries led by Count Helias were laying siege to Le [sign in to see URL] promptly left, crossed the stormy waters of "The Channel" which were far worse than they are today amd on arrival in Normandy raised a huge army to deal with the threat.
It showed two sides of his character:his perennial urgency in defending The Norman Revolution 1066-1100,and his choice of Brockenhurst as a coastal link-up point for [sign in to see URL] was not just a hunting lodge,it was a strategic political-military location.

Bill H (personal capacity)
Aug/24/2004, 9:32 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: William the Red


Bill H,Brockenhurst was a good strategic fit but I'm not so sure it was the best [sign in to see URL] you look for example at Lewes on the South Downs held by William Warenne that's far more significant and given the fact that he was number three in the leadership of The Norman Revolution after the Conqueror and the Red,it becomes clear that after his tragic demise in 1088 the Red could have utilised that to better effect if it had crossed his mind to do [sign in to see URL] was considered the strategic county in llnking Normandy-Angleland from Angleland's side and it occurs to me that Lewes commanding the road to Pevensey must have been a strong temptation to prefer it to Brockenhurst or any other location for that matter.

John G. Vice-Chairperson (personal capacity)
Aug/28/2004, 5:32 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: William the Red


I viewed the recent broadcast of the Holocaust Memorial Service at Westminster Hall.
One was transported spiritually by the divine equilibrium of the occasion,the gravitas of which suffused every second.
There were however two omissions which were more than a trifle irksome and somewhat diverting to the historical focus.
Firstly,the fact that the Hall was built on the orders of the Red and secondly that the Red,like the Conqueror,was a protector of Jewish people and their rights and responsibilities as permanent settlers in [sign in to see URL] honour they were refused by the bigoted,pre-1066 rulers of [sign in to see URL] a result of the exclusion of the Red from the broadcast,his strikingly insightful comment on seeing the finished Hall was not stated "it is not big enough!".Only a consummate revolutionist such as him could have uttered such words emoticon

Lydia Giles (personal capacity)
Feb/7/2005, 10:56 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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posticon Re: William the Red


All :: this might be seen as angels on the point of a pin territory but i read recently that the Red might have examined the arrow which was used in his assassination only hours before it happened. He praised the craftsmanship which produced it and seemed to be enthusiastic about using it himself.
Fact of fiction?

Martin Tilston (personal capacity)
Feb/18/2005, 10:14 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 


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