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thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Becket was a Norman


There's a film airing on UK tv,with the usual hyped up cavalcade of "stars", today about Thomas Becket called 'Becket'.
It's about Becket's relationship with Henry [sign in to see URL] in the 1960's, based on a play by Jean Anouilh,famous for his work about the conflict between the Temporal and the [sign in to see URL] film is entertaining and informative,despite being peppered with historical [sign in to see URL] among them is to make Becket a "Saxon".The reason for this blatant lie is probably that it invokes,negatively,1066(to which there are a few references although none to 1058 and Varaville).

Becket was a [sign in to see URL] had a family line stretching back to Senlac and [sign in to see URL] Henry 11,he led armies into battle before becoming Archbishop of [sign in to see URL] bravery in the face of his assassins and in the defence of his Faith,is [sign in to see URL] could have easily escaped the assassins within the confines of the Cathedral [sign in to see URL] date of the film in the 1960's shows that the anglo-saxon revisionist "histories" about 1066 (1058 Varaville is a closed book for such studies)and its subsequent action were firmly in place and are today still rewriting it to the detriment of The Norman Revolution 1058-1100.
Martin Tilston,Bev Morton,Steve Walsh,Sammy,Becky (all in personal capacity)
Aug/18/2007, 12:09 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: Becket was a Norman


WRTF:

You have one thing right: The name Becket is definitely of French derivation. But by the time of Henry II there were lots of connections with France, of various kinds, you know. No need to invoke any claims of "revisionism" here. Oh, and I certainly wouldn't take anything I saw in a "historical" movie based on a Broadway play as gospel historical truth, in any case.
Anne G
Aug/18/2007, 9:40 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Becket was a Norman


Martin and co we too were totally furious at this slandering of an outstanding public historical [sign in to see URL] has much to recommend him and the film is intellectually challenging but to change the historical identity of the protagonist in the interests of presumably "telling a "good story" and putting bums on seats" says much about ignorance and little about [sign in to see URL] think this poetic license is a bridge too far and is an insult to Norman achievement.

The constant reference to Becket as "saxon" by numerous of his enemies was clearly an attempt to indoctrinate an [sign in to see URL] were a few references to the Conqueror neither of them complimentary except for one about his tax concessions to the [sign in to see URL] needs to read Frank Barlow's "Thomas Becket" which is the only authorised biography to our [sign in to see URL] is nothing to do with the name which became a Becket in later [sign in to see URL] his times Becket was known simply as Thomas of [sign in to see URL] to return to the film portrayal why was there no mention of Archbishop Thurstain? We know he is one of Martin and Sammy's special heroes emoticon emoticon emoticon We consider that Thurstain a confidante of the Red and later a leader at the Battle Of The Standard in 1138 would have left his significance for many a year and not Archbishop Theobald whom the film treats as a doddering relic from a bygone age for whom the Angevin had a lot of [sign in to see URL] no surprise to us that Becket's warrior career was entirely excluded except as a hint or whatever in two scenes where he disarms would-be assassins while still [sign in to see URL] often ignored that the reason his assassins came armed to the teeth to murder him was that they and tbe Angevin knew of his warrior [sign in to see URL] could easily have had a blade concealed under his vestments in their calculations. Frank Barlow's excellent book describes a formidable struggle by him in any case; in contrast to the film where he sleepwalks to [sign in to see URL] comparisons are made with the William the Conqueror film made in the 1980's. The factual content of that film was much higher than in Becket.
Tellingly, 'Becket' is available on DVD whereas 'William the Conqueror' is not.

Bill H,Franc B,Rob,Galazou T emoticon (all in personal capacity)
Aug/25/2007, 10:29 am Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: Becket was a Norman


WRTF and all:

Jeez. Don't you guys ever read with comprehension? I have never claimed Thomas Becket was anything but French, for crying out loud! As I said before, and I will repeat: the name itself is a dead giveaway! Yet you prattle about how I should read Frank Barlow's biography! I may just do that, but I've never seen the book anywhere, and believe me, I'm fairly familiar with the available literature on various medieval figures of this period(even though some of them are not easily available to me). As far as this "a" Becket stuff, I would tend to agree with you on this; it seems to me to be pretty much a Victorian invention(please read this for comprehension)
Anne G
Aug/25/2007, 8:35 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Housecarl 1066 Profile
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Re: Becket was a Norman


WTF have posted yet more arrogant manure and run off into silence again... emoticon

Beckett was English, wasn't he? emoticon

BooHoo, so FatpuffingBilly isn't out on [sign in to see URL] because([sign in to see URL])- [sign in to see URL]....?

"User Comments:
...obsolete medieval epic..."
emoticon emoticon

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Aug/26/2007, 6:01 pm Link to this post Send Email to Housecarl 1066   Send PM to Housecarl 1066
 
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Re: Becket was a Norman


Housecarl:

I'm not sure about this. I believe Becket was English in the sense that he was born there, but the name itself is definitely of French origin, so presumably his family had migrated. I don't know how much these differences "meant" by that time, however. Otherwise, the WRTF has, as usual, confused some issues.
Anne G
Aug/26/2007, 8:12 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Becket was a Norman


Thought-provoking stuff Bill H, Franc B,Rob,Galazou [sign in to see URL] worst scene on the Becket-Saxon theme in the film was that where the hero meets his future assassins outside a fallen town and after an altercation leaves them with a parting shot"England's honour is to succeed".They do not think much of him and one questions his identity which elicits the response from another "Who knows what he is,he's a Saxon".There's a certain humour in viewing this kind of shameful ignorance.
If Becket had an 'inspiror' we would opt for Archbishop [sign in to see URL] too was devout and took to the field of battle (1075,1088).The relationship he had with the Conqueror and later with the Red was based on mutual loyalty and [sign in to see URL] very things that the Angevin lacked in Becket's view. We don't consider Thurstan an incorrect choice not least because someone born in 1070 with his formative,religion-inspired years during some of the high points of The Norman Revolution,1058-1100,would surely be influenced firmly by Lanfranc? Becket was born in 1120 and was 20 when Thurstan [sign in to see URL],irrespective of which archbishop you choose there is a road to Lanfranc.
 The fact concerning the dvds is well [sign in to see URL] Bellow's performance as the Conqueror stands comparison with Burton or O'Toole in their roles but the Conqueror's dvd has been 'buried' despite the fact that historically it is far closer to the truth than 'Becket'. As a former participant on the old Chatboard used to bemoan memorably " O tempora! O mores!".Mousteriana may remember who that was? concerning your French label to [sign in to see URL], you are looking at England and France then as if they are today's [sign in to see URL] Norman identity was distinct in Becket's [sign in to see URL]'s standing was greater than England exactly because of [sign in to see URL] identified himself as a Norman nor a [sign in to see URL] Angevin and the French King were constantly at loggerheads in his [sign in to see URL] was not integrated into France until 1204. 34 years after Becket's assassination.

John G,Drogo (both in personal capacity)
Sep/1/2007, 12:21 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: Becket was a Norman


WRTF:

Aaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!!!!

Why, oh why, do you people continually misunderstand what I was saying? I never claimed Becket was an Englishman. In fact, I was at pains to point out the opposite. Either you folks simply cannot comprehend anything outside of your hagiographic worship of William the Offspring of an Informal Relatiohship, or you have some serious developmental deficiency somewhere. Where, I don't know, and I don't care. I'm sure, in your case, it can be fixed. But please, pleaseread what people actually write, rather than make outrageous claims about what you think they've written.
Anne G
Sep/2/2007, 12:22 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Becket was a Norman


I believe Becket was English in the sense that - Ann G
Becket was in no sense English.

Pereobu (personal capacity)
Sep/8/2007, 3:25 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: Becket was a Norman


quote:

thewilliam theredforum2002 wrote:

I believe Becket was English in the sense that - Ann G
Becket was in no sense English.

Pereobu (personal capacity)



English please? emoticon emoticon emoticon Dumb Eurotrash"forum" wannabe...

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Sep/8/2007, 3:49 pm Link to this post Send Email to Housecarl 1066   Send PM to Housecarl 1066
 


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