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mousteriana
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Re: Becket was a Norman
Pereobu:
Please, kindly, explain exactly what you mean by that. Your Forum seems to have a distinct lack of ability to read for comprehension. And, BTW, why do you go to such length to *deny* any "taint" of Englishness in the aforementioned Becket?????
Anne G
quote:
thewilliam theredforum2002 wrote:
I believe Becket was English in the sense that - Ann G
Becket was in no sense English.
Pereobu (personal capacity)
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Sep/8/2007, 11:32 pm
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Housecarl 1066
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Re: Becket was a Norman
Anyone looking at the posts on this website could be forgiven for thinking that being French is itself an unwanted 'taint'...
ie. Our exposure of Norman duplicity and desperately inadequate propganda and hagiography...
...and TheGayBilly's evident stupidity and historical impotence... 
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Sep/9/2007, 8:11 am
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mousteriana
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Re: Becket was a Norman
Housecarl:
Trouble is, I don't think anybody on the WRTF is actually French. Real French men and women would be a lot politer and more realistic about these subjects. . . .
Anne G
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Sep/9/2007, 11:53 pm
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thewilliam theredforum2002
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Re: Becket was a Norman
You,Mousteriana,seem to think that because someone is born in a geographic area,that defines their historical identity.That is the most narrow-minded view that anyone could have.As Pereobu and other members have stated, the movie 'Becket' betrays him by deceiving its public into thinking he is 'Saxon'.Have you seen this movie? If not then I recommend you do so ASAP and you will perhaps realise the enormity of the insult to a man who was proud of his Norman identity and as members of our Forum analyse, may well have been inspired and motivated by Archbishops Lanfranc and Thurstan to confront Henri 11 whose piety or rather lack of it was a public disgrace until he walked a mile(1.5 kilometres) barefoot while thousands watched in order to do penance (which included being flogged by monks) at Becket's tomb.If you manage to see the movie you will also see that the last incident I mentioned is also depicted deceptively in historical terms.
Dinsdale,First Secretary (personal capacity)
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Sep/15/2007, 2:34 pm
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mousteriana
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Re: Becket was a Norman
Dinsdale:
First, let me explain, which I probably should have earlier. It just so happens, I have seen the film *Becket*, although it was a long time ago. But for the record, when I mentioned Becket, I wasn't thinking about the film, but the real person. You might object to the portrayal of Becket in the aforementioned film and play, but bear in mind, this was a creation of the imagination of an *author* and a *director*. If you want to complain about such portrayals, you should address your complaints to these folks, not to me. My comments about Becket's origins were strictly based, as far as I was able to base them, on what I've *read*. In real histories. Now I grant you, that's not much, since my interest in Thomas Becket is not very great(I've never been all that interested in historical church/state conflicts in the first place). But what I *cannot* understand is your refusal to acknowledge that I never said *anything* about the guy being a "Saxon"(a term, BTW, which is really the invention of Sir Walter Scott; it was not used for the native English at the time). I merely said that the name Becket was of French origin. But you have chosen to either misunderstand or deliberately misinterpret what I said, into something else. And you call yourselves "historians"??????
Anne G
quote:
thewilliam theredforum2002 wrote:
You,Mousteriana,seem to think that because someone is born in a geographic area,that defines their historical identity.That is the most narrow-minded view that anyone could have.As Pereobu and other members have stated, the movie 'Becket' betrays him by deceiving its public into thinking he is 'Saxon'.Have you seen this movie? If not then I recommend you do so ASAP and you will perhaps realise the enormity of the insult to a man who was proud of his Norman identity and as members of our Forum analyse, may well have been inspired and motivated by Archbishops Lanfranc and Thurstan to confront Henri 11 whose piety or rather lack of it was a public disgrace until he walked a mile(1.5 kilometres) barefoot while thousands watched in order to do penance (which included being flogged by monks) at Becket's tomb.If you manage to see the movie you will also see that the last incident I mentioned is also depicted deceptively in historical terms.
Dinsdale,First Secretary (personal capacity)
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Sep/16/2007, 1:02 am
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TimesArrow
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Re: Becket was a Norman
WTRF,
It's good to have some facts on which we can all agree. No-one now disputes that Becket's family was of Norman origin!
Thomas Becket (or Bequet) was born about 1118 at Cheapside, London, to Gilbert of Thierceville, Normandy, and Matilda (with a familiar name of Roheise or Rosea) of Caen. His parents were upper-middle class, lived near Rouen, and were buried in Old St Paul's Cathedral.
Even Anouilh himself subsequently admitted that his source was wrong about Becket's "Saxon" identity but he decided to let the play stand as a work of literature.
So you can relax! Mousteriana was actually agreeing with you. 
quote:
Becket was in no sense English.
Not quite true, Pereobu - Becket was born in England. He was a Londoner. And this did seem to affect how he was perceived. Certainly, William the Conqueror's youngest son, Henry I, made great play of the fact that *he* was born in England.
Incidentally, while one has to admire Becket's ultimate bravery, not everyone agrees that he was (in Sellar and Yeatman speak!) a Good Thing. In 2005 he was named as Britain's worst villain of the twelfth century in the "Worst Britons" poll by the BBC History Magazine. Professor John Hudson of St Andrews University selected Becket because of his political legacy: "He divided England in a way that even many churchmen who shared some of his views thought unnecessary and self-indulgent. He was a founder of gesture politics."
I can see what he means, though it still seems a bit harsh...
Regards,
Time's Arrow
Last edited by TimesArrow, Sep/19/2007, 10:28 pm
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Sep/19/2007, 12:15 pm
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thewilliam theredforum2002
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Re: Becket was a Norman
TimesArrow,
The professor is an idiot or possibly a sympathiser of Henri 11.Compared to the Conqueror and the Red, Henri 11 is in every sense an historical dwarf.Becket spoke Norman-French as his first and probably his only language.By any historical identity criteria that makes him Norman(Frank-Viking) and not English.
Dennis Keel,Marita Keel (both in personal capacity)
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Sep/19/2007, 10:13 pm
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TimesArrow
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Re: Becket was a Norman
Never said he was English, but to his enemies he was "Becket from Cheapside", right?
Or have I been reading too much T.S. Eliot?!
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Sep/19/2007, 10:29 pm
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mousteriana
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Re: Becket was a Norman
TimesArrow:
Obviously it really doesn't matter to the WRTF that you and I were both agreeing that Becket was of (Norman) French origin. And it really doesn't matter to them that he was born in England and apparently lived most of his life there. As far as they are (apparently) concerned, this just didn't happen. Sometimes, it seems to me that the only thing that matters to them is that we all sit down and worship ol' King William, his son whom the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle called William the Younger(and is popularly known as William Rufus for various reasons). If we disagree with this, no matter what historical sources we refer to, then we are wrong, wrong, wrong. But then, they have openly claimed all historians are "biased". I don't know what to think.
Anne G
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Sep/20/2007, 4:48 am
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Housecarl 1066
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Re: Becket was a Norman
Dinsdale (Really Froggie name, eh?), Haribou Sweets and the other weirdly-named idiotic morons in their GeekGroup are a futile rabble of arrogant, inaccurate and historically impotent imberciles...
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Sep/20/2007, 10:16 am
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