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Re: Thurstin De Bayeux


Drogo
My point was really about the extent to which The Holy Grotto Principles of Saint Benedict Of Nursia found their most advanced expression, emoticon Hugues de Cluny was clearly much more in touch with the leading Frankish aristocrats to the extent that he tempered his criticism of Philippe 1 in order to make sure that they maintained identification with Cluny and what it stood for from 910 onwards. The Cistercians also were strong on THGP but the link with Normandy is not so pronounced historically being more focused on The Frankish Kingdom and Bernard de Clairvaux. Thurstin was certainly intent on fully identifying with Cluny and the Cistercians but as you say it was in circumstances such as 1138 that he defined his Faith beyond his peers. The way he involved the worship of local Saints with the Scottish invasion and the necessity to repel it was just fantastic emoticon I have been trying to find information on St Peter of York,St John of Beverley and St Wilfrid of Ripon but they are more than a bit obscure on indisputable [sign in to see URL] other thing that is perplexing is why did Thurstin order the monks out of St Mary's in York to found the Cistercian monastic house in Skeldale? How did he make that 'consistent' with making the local Saint one of his focus points for 1138? Perhaps this is a rubic cube of a historical puzzle or am I missing something emoticon ?
Paul (personal capacity)
May/28/2008, 9:58 pm Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 
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Re: Thurstin De Bayeux


Paul,
Cannot help on [sign in to see URL] the face of it there seems to be an inconsistency in my view. It's a problem is it not when someone so understanding of eremiticism which some traditions define as close to syncretism wants to 'widen the doorway' of theology with all the complex practical problems it must lead to?
My main question would be why did Thurstin need to vary Cluniacism to the extent of adopting the Cistercian view? You mention Clairvaux but he was not the founder of its [sign in to see URL] de Molesme founded it at Citeaux in [sign in to see URL] means it was in competition with Cluny, not least the Cluny that is depicted in "The Chronicon Cluniacense' of 'blessed memory'.In fact Robert de Molesme altered monastic practice in a way that conflicted with the impeccable arrangements of Hugues de Cluny. What de Molesme did was to introduce lay monks to carry out agricultural and related tasks formerly the duty of the theological-working monks. These lay monks were not of the same theological calibre as their forerunners. This led to one thing of importance: a dilution of The Holy Grotto Principles of Saint Benedict to which you [sign in to see URL] unity of the mental and physical by each monk was the trademark of Hugues de Cluny's interpretation of THGP and this interpretation was something that obviously attracted the Conqueror,Warenne etc to both Cluny Abbey and Marcigny-sur-Loire [sign in to see URL] Thurstin understood the consequences of this Molesme 'regression' is difficult to guage.
His time with the Red and Ranulph Flambard would have been dominated by Cluniacism and its 'Chronicon Cluniacense'dimension' emoticon This being the case why did he see it necessary to 'widen the doorway'? Drogo provides part of the answer with his reference to Beauclerc's rule. Cistercianism took root in Angleland in [sign in to see URL] that time, Beauclerc's Counter-Revolution was at its peak. Cluniacism was no longer the priority it was between 1058 and [sign in to see URL] was however still strong in other parts of Medieval [sign in to see URL] 1120, Adele de Blois-Chartres had joined the Convent at Marcigny-sur-Loire, keen to unify herself mentally and physically in [sign in to see URL] still had a 'big kick' in [sign in to see URL]'s preparation for The Battle Of The Standard(1138)was determined as much by what he learned from the Red and Ranulph Flambard(of course the Conqueror and Lanfranc more so)as by the more temporal problems of turning wavering pro-Stephen barons 'saintly'.Between these two factors in my view is Cluniacism and this three pointed stance made Cistercian initiatives more rather than less likely.
At the time of the first monastic foundation in Angleland in 1128,Bernard de Clairvaux was 38 and established as a rising advocate of Cistercian beliefs."The Honey-Mouthed Doctor" as he was known was much more interested in his spiritual relationship with God('De Consideratione')than the wider matter of interpreting the will of God which is much more prevalent with Hugue de Cluny,Cluny Abbey and Marcigny-sur-Loire [sign in to see URL] does become more interesting with 'Sermones super Cantica Canticorum' which conveys his thoughts on The Song of Songs a Hebrew poetic [sign in to see URL],he was not in Thurstin's standing and that is something my account of this great man of Bayeux attempts to make abundantly clear.

Bill H,Chairperson (personal capacity)
May/31/2008, 12:53 pm Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 
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Re: Thurstin De Bayeux


I consider the Cistercians not so much regression as a clear break with Cluniacism and Hugues' interpretation of THGP.

Franc B (personal capacity)
Jun/8/2008, 12:47 pm Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 
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Re: Thurstin De Bayeux


Franc

Its a complex matter admittedly but Bill has got it more or less correct emoticon (I think emoticon )
From my view it looks likely that Thurstin was concluding a code of understanding from the times he had lived in which encompassed the high points of The Norman Revolution 1058-1100 (after 1070 in his case) and the Counter-Revolution after [sign in to see URL] was not the same person that lived 1087-1100. Those reversals under Henri Beauclerc and which Stephen never sought to change made necessary the realisation that Cluniacism's exemplars as "summarised" in The Chronicon Cluniacense were not likely to be [sign in to see URL] had to recognise the Cistercian innovations despite the fact that they did differ from Hugues De Cluny's [sign in to see URL] that is not to say that he agreed with them against Cluniacism and The Holy Grotto Principles?

Rob (personal capacity)
Jun/14/2008, 11:09 am Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 
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Re: Thurstin De Bayeux


Franc and Rob,

I think its also the fact that the liturgical excellence of Cluniacism has often tended to obscure its more prominent facets.
When the Conqueror and Matilda began patronising Cluny Abbey and Odilo's tenets as interpreted and advanced by Hugues, they did so in the spirit of recognising that when Duke William the Pious of Aquitaine founded the Abbey in 910,he was attempting,successfully as it concluded,to alter the theological direction of Catholicism or more specifically reaffirming THGP of Saint Benedict Of Nursia against the tide of negative practice prevailing at that time. For the Conqueror and Matilda, monasticism was the practical application of Faith and a model for how it related to the [sign in to see URL] symmetry was always at the centre of their Christian belief [sign in to see URL] also relates to the pivotal significance of Lanfranc.I know I have a controversial view on this emoticon but Lanfranc's work at Bec can only be understood in the light of that unforgetable visit which he made to Cluny Abbey in [sign in to see URL] the time, his vocation was as a lawyer which evolved into him becoming a teacher around [sign in to see URL], to become a teacher in Medieval Europe required being fully versed in logic, grammar and [sign in to see URL] official year for his conversion was 1042 and shortly after he took up residence in Bec [sign in to see URL] it took 12 years for him to finalise his commitment to [sign in to see URL] journey has a starting and finishing [sign in to see URL]'s was from Cluny to Bec(I see this in a certain sense as historically distinct from his tenure at Saint Etienne after 1063).In between was a thorough assimilation of the worldly skills that made him unique to the Conqueror and the [sign in to see URL] Cluny link was vital for his advancement as a theologian and advisor/leader 1058-1089.
Thurstin as an intellectual disciple of Lanfranc and one of his contemporaries, would have realised how important that Cluny link was and made it prominent as he evolved,vitally,in the 1090's and after [sign in to see URL].
Would Lanfranc have approved of the Cistercians? No, in my [sign in to see URL] would have despised the 'dilution factor' regarding entry requirements to Cluny and [sign in to see URL] eremiticistic approach would have made it [sign in to see URL] to which was the Cistercian insistence of the ending of the totality of self-sufficiency in their monasteries and which prevailed during Hugues tenure as [sign in to see URL], that 'dilution factor' was to arrive at Cluny in the mid-12th [sign in to see URL] did particular damage at [sign in to see URL] how could someone like Thurstin be diverted from his beliefs by something that was obviously so jading to them? He didn't of course and that is why he was successful in 1138 while recognising that Cistercian beliefs were also a firmly established part of Medieval Europe which could not be ignored.

Bill H,Chairperson (personal capacity)

Last edited by WilliamtheRed Forum1, Jun/15/2008, 12:00 pm
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Xavier9 Profile
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Re: Thurstin De Bayeux


This is very informative.I had always considered Archbishop Thurstin of York a great theologian but his work during King Stephen's conflict with Empress Matilda is often [sign in to see URL].
Jun/23/2015, 4:34 pm Link to this post Send Email to Xavier9   Send PM to Xavier9
 


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