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WilliamtheRed Forum1 Profile
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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


..Harold followed any such philosophy or political party, assuming such a thing existed. Unless, of course, you want to say he was just a clone of his father Godwin

No, that is not what Bill stated.He suggested you study the history of the Usurper and how that related to the events of the 820's.Or try studying your own history and who influenced you.The Usurper no more lived in a void than anyone else.Yet you claim he did.Who was he influenced by if it was not the King of Angleland at that time? The same king whom his father so worshipped.

Marita Keel,First Secretary,Steve Walsh,Becky,Franc B (all in personal capacity)

Jun/5/2008, 9:42 pm Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


Marita, WRTF, and all:

I'm not saying, and nobody else is saying(that I know of) that Harold lived "in a void". However, the wording of your posts strongly suggests that Harold followed some "philosophy". As far as I can tell, he didn't, other than the "philosophy" of what he thought was best for England.
Anne G
Jun/5/2008, 9:50 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
WilliamtheRed Forum1 Profile
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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


You conclude "philosophy". Cnutian is a political term. Do you not know the difference?

Franc B (personal capacity)
Jun/8/2008, 12:39 pm Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 
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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


Franc B:

So you're saying there was a "Cnutian Party" in Harold's day? Funny, I never heard of a "Cnutian Poltical Party" at that time. Or are you saying Harold was its sole member and exponent? Inquiring minds want to know.
Anne G
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WilliamtheRed Forum1 Profile
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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


Anne G

You do not need a "political party" to be influenced politically by Cnut or any other monarch.Cnut the Great as his cognomen suggests was a towering figure of his day.His successes and rule influenced all the people he ruled in his North Sea Empire as some historians term it. He especially influenced the nobles who supported him in that Empire. Not least in Angleland from which he ruled.Godwin was an ardent follower and helped Cnut rule in Denmark itself.Godwin's sons were all influenced by him. The description Cnutian is singularly apt for those comtemporaneous reasons but also because Cnut's influence extended beyond his death in 1035.The fact that what followed his death was deemed by some to be a long period of instability, gave rise to a kind of nostalgia for the political certainties of the Cnut phase of rule and its unique characteristics.

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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


Rob and WRTF:



quote:

WilliamtheRed Forum1 wrote:

You do not need a "political party" to be influenced politically by Cnut or any other monarch.Cnut the Great as his cognomen suggests was a towering figure of his day.His successes and rule influenced all the people he ruled in his North Sea Empire as some historians term it. He especially influenced the nobles who supported him in that Empire. Not least in Angleland from which he ruled.Godwin was an ardent follower and helped Cnut rule in Denmark itself.Godwin's sons were all influenced by him. The description Cnutian is singularly apt for those comtemporaneous reasons but also because Cnut's influence extended beyond his death in 1035.The fact that what followed his death was deemed by some to be a long period of instability, gave rise to a kind of nostalgia for the political certainties of the Cnut phase of rule and its unique characteristics.

Rob (personal capacity)



It is true that Godwin rose to power in Cnut's time, but this rise had started in his father's time(can't rmeember his name, however), and that was basically under Aethelraed. IOW, the Godwin family had become important enough by the time Godwin was a grown man, that Godwin knew enough to gravitate to whatever power was on the throne at the time. Cnut was considered pretty powerful over a large swath of Northern Europe, not just Scandinavia, and while he apparently schemed(if that's the right word), to create a "northern empire", this didn't last after his death in 1035. Godwin did try to gravitate toward Harthacnut, which kept him in power and influence, but at that time, Harold was hardly old enough to have anything to do with this. How "influenced" Harold might have been by Cnut's reign is therefore, in my opinion, a question thtat simply cannot be answered. By the time he was an adult, things had changed, and he was more or less his own man. Furthermore, if there had been such "Cnutianism", why didn't Harold try to displace Edward "the Confessor"? He probably could have, with some help. But he didn't. Instead, he supported Edward, innsofar as he was able, including(apparently), searthing for Edgar Aetheling as the natural successor to Edward.
Anne G
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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


why didn't Harold try to displace Edward "the Confessor"? He probably could have, with some help. But he didn't.
He didn't because Godwin,his father, was the head of the House of Wessex. There is no evidence that the Usurper ever opposed the strategy and tactics of his father while Godwin lived.

Bill H,Chairperson (personal capacity)
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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


quote:

WilliamtheRed Forum1 wrote:

There is no evidence that Harold ever opposed the strategy and tactics of his father while Godwin lived.




Erm, they were one and the same, moron!

And thanks for admitting that Harold never tried to seize power, which he didn't, before or after 1053 (when Godwin - that's his FATHER- died!)

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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


Housecarl and WRTF:

quote:

Housecarl 1066 wrote:

quote:

WilliamtheRed Forum1 wrote:

There is no evidence that Harold ever opposed the strategy and tactics of his father while Godwin lived.




Erm, they were one and the same, moron!

And thanks for admitting that Harold never tried to seize power, which he didn't, before or after 1053 (when Godwin - that's his FATHER- died!)

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The sentence about Harold and his father could be clearer. But, to give credit where credit is due, I think they (sort of) distinguished between the two. But I'm completely unclear on why Harold didn't try to displace Edward "the Confessor" because Godwin was head of the House of Wessex. That makes no sense. If Godwin ended up supporting Edward, it wasn't because he was "head of the House of Wessex". This is illogical and doesn't follow. Godwin supported Edward because he could, or thought he could, continue in power that way.
Anne G

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WilliamtheRed Forum1 Profile
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Re: Michel de Bouard and the English


Anne G
They did try to displace him in 1051,failed and were exiled by the Confessor.Shortly afterwards the Confessor promised the succession in Angleland to the Conqueror.That was the one clear chance that the Usurper had in the lifetime of his father to oust the Confessor.That was the highpoint of the Godwin clan.They fluffed it.To what extent it could be asked did that failure impact not just on the Usurper but on Tostig? If there was to be a Cnutian revival, did 1051 tell him that it would not be through his father's "leadership" but from Scandinavia? No one should underestimate the impact of The Danish Revolution 1016-35 every shire in Angleland received new Danish landlords.Many Angles Saxons etc were expelled from their lands and many were killed resisting.The true heir to Angleland's throne, Eadwig was assassinated on Cnut's orders as were other dissenting nobles. That was what the Godwin clan identified with.But what must have been clear after 1051 (1052 return notwithstanding) was that Godwin's leadership could not deliver. It follows then that Tostig's viking solution strategy with Hardraada may have taken root intellectually as early as 1051.

Hugo (personal capacity)
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