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wulfstan Profile
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Re: Tostig Godwineson


Lydia,
1. Orderic Vitalis' testimony on this point is simply not credible. He says that Judith and Matilda were sisters when in fact Judith was Matilda's aunt. Marjorie Chibnall, the editor and translator of Orderic for Oxford Medieval Texts, states in her notes on this point that "even if it is true that Tostig's travels took him through Normandy, the remainder of Orderic's story of collusion with Duke William is pure invention." You may choose to believe what Orderic says, but you certainly cannot argue that it is reliable testimony.

2. Emma did not die in 1051; she died on March 6,1052.

3. Outside the propagandistic, panegyric Norman sources there is absolutely no evidence that Edward ever made William his heir, and even if he did, he did not have the authority to do so. Those are the facts. Now you may choose to believe otherwise, but the burden of proof is on you. Even the Norman sources agree that King Edward made Harold his heir and was backed up by the witan.

Greg
May/1/2004, 6:03 pm Link to this post Send Email to wulfstan   Send PM to wulfstan
 
kebara Profile
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Re: Tostig Godwineson


All:

It's true that Edward spent his "formative" years in Normandy, and it's also true that he didn't like or trust the Godwins very much. But as Greg pointed out, Edward could have named Edgar Atheling as his heir and he didn't. That pretty much left Harold, as far as the English were concerned. And that's how the Witan saw it, it would seem. As for Orderic Vitalis, well, he is a very good source for some things, but he also made William pronounce a deathbed confession about how sorry he was that he'd caused all that killing during the Harrying of the North. Which was no doubt very edifying at the time, but hardly believable. I'm sure Orderic did the best he co uld with the material he had at hand, though.
Anne G
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posticon Re: Tostig Godwineson


Hello everyone.
Edward appointed Tostig Earl of Northumbria in 1055.
He was the king's favourite Godwineson and was also backed by Queen Edith,his [sign in to see URL] was pro-Norman and for 13 years he had been unable to impose his rule in [sign in to see URL] had not even visited the place which was virtually a Bamburgh family fiefdom and a medieval 'Wild West' baaed on the Cnutian doctrine of Blood-Feud.
Cnut and Harthacnut had tried to rein in the Bamburghs and their acolytes but mostly things had not changed.
Tostig with 200 Housecarls tried to impose law and order and end the tax concessions granted to the Bamburghs by successive monarchs at least since Aethelred.
He also was frequently out of Northumbria to discuss his radical policy with Edward and its [sign in to see URL] had a joint plan for [sign in to see URL] visited Continental Europe as in 1061 to Rome where he backed the Bishop of [sign in to see URL] why the cat was away the mice [sign in to see URL] crucially Malcolm 111 of Scotland invaded and caused devastation.
This combination of Malcolm-Bamburgh,aided and abetted by Harold who was seeking to undermine fatally the burgeoning Edward-Tostig axis proved Tostig's undoing and made him easy meat for the Morcar-Edwin-Oswulf-Waltheof attack in 1065.
I read Tostig Godwineson as a evolving in pro-Norman revolutionary direction by his rule in [sign in to see URL] would explain the cordial reception he got when he visited the Conqueror in [sign in to see URL] in 1066 he visited the Count of Flanders,Swein of Denmark and finally [sign in to see URL] Swein showed [sign in to see URL] was not unexpected since he later sent Danish soldiers to stand with Harold.
It's no surprise that part of Tostig's deal with Hardraada was to be Jarl of Northumbria and Sub-Regulus of (North)Angleland.
If dual-monarchy had happened it would not have lasted long because the Vikings believed in slavery and the Normans didn't.
Steve Walsh (personal capacity)
May/2/2004, 4:31 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Tostig Godwineson


It should be remembered that Hardraada's claim was rooted in a commitment given by Harthacnut to Hardraada's father Magnus whose claim,backed by a huge fleet,was only ended by his death in [sign in to see URL] was also Emma of Normandy's choice to replace Harthacnut in 1042.

Tostig Godwineson's action in persuading Hardraada is often cruelly [sign in to see URL] the amazing victory at Nissa over Swein,in 1065 it took him 18 months to repel a revolt in the Swedish Uplands in support of Harkon Ivarsson.

Although it is the case that the revival of Cnut the Great's North Sea Empire was high on his agenda,starting,like Cnut,with a takeover in Angleland,the logistics of the military operation were [sign in to see URL]'s motivation triggered support from Skule Konfrostre,a member of Hardaada's Council, and a decisive counterweight to the main Council member opposed to the mission,Ulf Ospaksson.

What is also instructive in the accounts of the Tostig/Hardraada meeting is that the Conqueror is not even [sign in to see URL] can only mean,given the historical dynamics and gravity of the meeting,that it was taken for granted that he would strike from Normandy at the south of Angleland.A unified strategy made eminent,common [sign in to see URL] it should not be forgotten that the Normans originated,as Vikings,in Norway before being outlawed by Harald Fairhair.

This is why I consider Tostig Godwineson to be not a "go-between".It is a far too passive [sign in to see URL] was a catalyst.

Drogo,Chairperson.(personal capacity)
May/5/2004, 8:38 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
kebara Profile
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Re: Tostig Godwineson


Drogo:

If William was not even mentioned, it sounds to me like Tostig just didn't put William in the equation at all. Which probably means that Tostig had his own agenda with Harold, which he presumably thought Hardraada would advance. No wonder Chibnall(a respected historian of the period)thinks Orderic's claim isn't believable.
Anne G
May/6/2004, 7:21 am Link to this post Send Email to kebara   Send PM to kebara
 
wulfstan Profile
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Re: Tostig Godwineson


If Emma supported Harold Hardraada to replace Harthacnut in 1042, then why did Harthacnut, her son by Cnut, invite Edward in 1041 to come to England to share the throne; which he subsequently did.

Greg
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Re: Tostig Godwineson


Greg:

That's a real good question. I rather doubt if, by that time, the English really wanted the "Danes" around, at least not as rulers. Not even Harthacnut.
Anne G
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Re: Tostig Godwineson


Anne and Greg::
(a)It was Magnus of Norway who Emma wanted to succeed Harthacnut not HH.
(b)Marjorie Chibnall's views need to be weighed with [sign in to see URL] biog of Empress Matilda mentions Adela who was the Conqueror's daughter and a power-broker of great distinction precisely once.
(c)If Anglo-Danes were hostile to being ruled from Scandanavia a la Cnut why did they greet Hardraada of Norway as a liberator in York after Fulford Gate and later rise in support of Sweyns counter-revolutionary incursion of 1069?
(d)If Tostig "had his own agenda" why did he visit potential European allies to curry [sign in to see URL] you hold to your view how do you explain Viken?

CT (personal capacity)
May/7/2004, 9:05 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
wulfstan Profile
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Re: Tostig Godwineson




(a)It was Magnus of Norway who Emma wanted to succeed Harthacnut not HH.

-The burden of proof is on you; what is it?

(b)Marjorie Chibnall's views need to be weighed with [sign in to see URL] biog of Empress Matilda mentions Adela who was the Conqueror's daughter and a power-broker of great distinction precisely once.

-You are missing the point. Orderic's tale of Tostig's collusion with William is absurd. Tostig was his father's son. Tostig was as anti-Norman as his father and brothers were, that is why he sought help in Norway. Chibnall is an emminent scholar of the first order. It is absurd for you to question her view based on the number of mentions of Adela in another work.

(c)If Anglo-Danes were hostile to being ruled from Scandanavia a la Cnut why did they greet Hardraada of Norway as a liberator in York after Fulford Gate and later rise in support of Sweyns counter-revolutionary incursion of 1069?

- This is a silly assertion. York was defenseless after Edwin and Morcar's defeat. What had York just been liberated from? Morcar was their popularly chosen earl.

(d)If Tostig "had his own agenda" why did he visit potential European allies to curry [sign in to see URL] you hold to your view how do you explain Viken?

- The burden of proof is on you to show that he did visit potential European allies to curry support.

Greg



May/8/2004, 6:52 pm Link to this post Send Email to wulfstan   Send PM to wulfstan
 
kebara Profile
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Re: Tostig Godwineson


Greg and all:

I think it's possible that some people have come to the conclusion that Tostig may have colluded with William because it's known that he fell out with his brother Harold, for a number of reasons. But Greg is right: it's extremely doubtful that even Tostig would have wanted to be serving under William, whoever or whatever else he may have wanted.

As to Edwin and Morcar, again, the problem here is, they didn't like the Godwin family, but does that necessarily mean they would have preferred William? We *know* what happened to Edwin and MOrcar: Edwin was apparently killed by his own men in 1071,and before then, they snuck away from William's court(or at least that's what I understand). Morcar was left, and when William didn't give *him* what *he* wanted(I'm not entirely clear as to what that might have been), *he* rose up in revolt too. He was inprisoned for the rest of his life for his pains. I suspect the only reason Edwin and Morcar got away with what they did was, they were probably considered too young(by William), to be potentially harmful --- at least at first.
Anne G
May/9/2004, 2:48 am Link to this post Send Email to kebara   Send PM to kebara
 


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