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thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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posticon Heroes of The Norman Revolution


This is the first of our key-facts portraits of the cental leaders of The Norman Revolution [sign in to see URL] Conqueror is well-known what is less well-known is the collective,leadership team he spearheaded.
We start with William Warenne.

1. He was the son of a little-known Norman Count, Rudolph of Varenne.

2. Warenne first rises to prominence in Normandy at the battle of Mortemer in 1054 at the beginning of the Conqueror's struggle to defeat the counter-revolutionary war against Normaandy led by Henri,the Frankish King and Geoffrey Martel of [sign in to see URL] was a ferocious conflict and Warenne featured greatly in ensuring the Conqueror's [sign in to see URL] the aftermath,he became a central leader in Haute-Normandie (Upper Normandy).

3. He fought at Hastings and by 1086 was a central leader in southern Angleland with a power-base at Lewes in Sussex.

4. In 1075, he was a central leader in suppressing the counter-revolutionary plot led by Roger of Breteuil,Ralph de Gael and Earl Waltheof.

5. In 1087-88, he backed the Red against the counter-revolutionary bloc led by Robert Courtheuse and Odo of Bayeux behind whom stood the Frankish King [sign in to see URL]'s death at the Siege of Pevensey in 1088 was a fitting end epitomising the selfless courage of someone who served The Norman Revolution in Normandy and Normandy-Angleland for 34 years.

6. Like the Conqueror,Warenne was steeped in Cluniacism. He founded the first Cluniac house in Angleland at Lewes between 1078 and 1080 and that was where he died of his wound received at Pevensey.

Bill H.,Lydia Giles,First Secretary,Hugo,Franc B. (all in personal capacity)
May/12/2004, 9:24 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
lagarvelho Profile
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Re: Heroes of The Norman Revolution


All:

Look, this "Norman Revolution" stuff is so silly as to be totally unbelievable. I try to remain reasonably objective about this period, but this kind of ahistorical babble just doesn't make sense. Most of the people surrounding William weren't out to promote a "revolution" in any sense anybody would u nderstand the term today. They were out to enrich themselves. And that is exactly what they did. William Warrene was one of the leaders of the pack in this regard.
Anne G
May/20/2004, 3:00 am Link to this post Send Email to lagarvelho   Send PM to lagarvelho
 
lagarvelho Profile
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Re: Heroes of The Norman Revolution


All:

Again, I really wish there were more poeple on this list. Especially people who really know and understand the Anglo-Norman period better than these promoters of this "Norman Revolution" idea seem to.
Anne G
May/20/2004, 3:01 am Link to this post Send Email to lagarvelho   Send PM to lagarvelho
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Heroes of The Norman Revolution


Anne,
There are two kinds of revolution which History recognises: the revolution from below in which masses of people participate eg England 1642,America 1776 and 1861-65,France 1789,Russia 1917 and the revolution from below in which masses of people do not participate but whose lives are irrevocably changed eg Alexander the Great's overthrow of the Persian Empire,Napoleon Bonaparte's export of the French Revolution to countries who sought to destroy the French Republic and Soviet and Chinese export of their revolutions [sign in to see URL] you might think about the merits or demerits of these revolutions they are incontrovertible,historical facts.
TWTRF2002 holds to the view that The Norman Revolution 1066-1100 was a revolution from above which ensured the progress of the Isles within the political trajectories and disputes delineated by the Frankish/French Kingdom for over 300 [sign in to see URL] is obviously a huge subject and one we are happy to return to at any [sign in to see URL] one fact worth considering in the meanwhile is that during the 100 Years War,the thoroughly French, English king Edward 111,who laid claim to the French kingdom stated openly that he recognised France as the more advanced [sign in to see URL] reason for that begins in 1066.

Drogo,Chairperson,Sammy,CT,Franc B,Hugo.(on behalf of TWTRF2002)
May/21/2004, 10:22 am Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
lagarvelho Profile
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Re: Heroes of The Norman Revolution


"Drogo"

I suppose you could call the latter "revolutions", but I don't consider them such in any real sense. And I certainly don't consider your thesis of a "Norman revolution" to be terribly valid for a number of reasons.

First, changes began to occur in England *before* 1066, starting with Ethelred's marriage to Emma. This action started more trade with the Continent. Later, Edward "the Confessor" encouraged various Normans to do various businesses in England. Much of this development was rather slow at first, but it was occurring. It is at least partially a myth that England would have "inevitably" ended up in the "Scandinavian" orbit had William not appeared on the scene, and being in the "Scandinavian" orbit would have somehow been bad.

Second, what happened at Hastings was important. It was very important, but not necessarily in the way you seem to think. The people you think were "heroes" of this "Norman revolution" were, IMO little better than horsethieves, no matter what their titles or how high their status may have been. Yes, their collective presence did affect the lives of a huge number of people, mostly adversely(with higher taxes and loss of lands, for example). But some of these effects were merely speeded up, rather than something entirely new and unexpected.
Anne G
May/22/2004, 4:44 am Link to this post Send Email to lagarvelho   Send PM to lagarvelho
 
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Re: Heroes of The Norman Revolution


Can someone settle a dispute I had today about a descendant of Warenne?
It concerns a visit by royal land commissioners to his castle requiring the descendant John of Warenne to produce land titles to prove his ownership of his land.
John drew his sword and according to William Warenne's traducer used the epithet "the Bastard" about the Conqueror as part of his defence of his rights.
It seems inconceivable to me that someone descended from Number Three in the Norman Revolutionary leadership could use a Frankish/Anglo-Saxon insult to the Conqueror to justify his rights.
According to Warenne's traducer this took place in the Fourteenth Century.
S. Walsh (personal capacity)
Nov/20/2004, 6:11 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
Stafford 1069 Profile
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Re: Heroes of The Norman Revolution


My Country's Youth


"In my youth I did dismiss, did disdain, did ignore my Country's Youth
It t'was said that we had Celtic and English inferiority
And so of course we needed Papal Norman Superiority
Then the Truth
The Truth within me bore: Shock. Grief. Awe.
That on that day of Brave Harold's fall
The Norman Bastard to our knees did force us all
That day-long at Hastings hard fought the English host
In ordered ranks to save our coast
With Brave Harold dead and battle lost
Desired we to exact and oath-born cost:

"Mind must be firmer
Heart stronger
Courage greater
As our strength weakens
And our ranks fall"

At Hastings gave all we, for all.

Dismiss? Disdain? Ignore my Country's Youth?
Not I, no more
Pray God forgive evermore."

Copyright Stafford 1069




Nov/30/2004, 9:08 pm Link to this post Send Email to Stafford 1069   Send PM to Stafford 1069
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Heroes of The Norman Revolution


On Senlac Hill

On Senlac Hill
All was still
The dead given up the ghosts
Stealing a land with his bloody hand
Godwineson sacrificing his hosts

On Senlac Hill
The just took the day
And Godwon a victory sound
With the sword and the lance
The thieves never had a chance
Fallen like leaves to the ground

On Senlac Hill
Loud was the shrill
Of the lies late History would suffer
About a “brave leader’s loss”
An island “nailed to a cross”
And no word of belief being tougher

Hugo (personal capacity)


Dec/11/2004, 11:27 am Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: Heroes of The Norman Revolution


Can anybody advise the exact site of Warenne's Cluniacist monastery in Lewes? My OS has short-changed me on others and this one looks no exception.
Another place I am trying to identify is L'Abbaye de Mortemer in Haute-Normandie which Warenne visited in [sign in to see URL] site is popular on a lot of itineries but the historical info is more important.

Dinsdale (personal capacity)
May/28/2005, 12:35 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: Heroes of The Norman Revolution


Dinsdale
Unsure about Lewes but L'Abbaye is in Lyon-La-Foret and no so far from the famous battle site.L'Abbaye is 12th Century so its probably Bec that's relevant here??

Sammy (personal capacity)
Jun/4/2005, 12:43 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 


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