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Hugues de Cluny



Cluny Monastery was not an ordinary monastery. Founded in 910 by Duke William the Pious of of Aquitaine, its ideological-spiritual influence was hegemonic in Europe between the 11th and 12th Centuries. From the perspective of The Norman Revolution 1058-1100 , Hugues de Cluny (1024-1109) is of vital, ideological importance in understanding its dynamics in the sense of a key, motivational origin: Cluniacism.

 He lived 1024-1109
 He was Abbot at Cluny Monastery, Burgundy (1049-1109).
 He became a monk at 14 under the tutelage of Odilo who was later canonised as a Saint.
 He developed the Latin liturgy.
 Hugues’ rule in Cluny led to the founding of over 2000 monasteries outside The Kingdom of The Franks.
 In 1055 he founded the first Cluniacist convent at Marcigny,in The Frankish Kingdom,which became a regular haunt of Adela de Blois, the Conqueror’s daughter.
 At his death there were over 300 monks at Cluny.
 He involved himself in diplomatic missions to Germany and Hungary representing the Catholic Church and defended Pope Gregory V11 against Holy Roman Emperor Henry 1V’s attempt to overrule him.
 He was canonised as a Saint in [sign in to see URL] Feast Day is 29th April.
 Cluny Monastery was supported by the Conqueror, Matilda and William de Warenne and the Red acknowledged its role during his rule.

Rob, Chairperson, Drogo, Martin Tilston, Dinsdale (all in personal capacity)
Apr/22/2005, 10:55 am Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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posticon Re: Hugues de Cluny


Wonderful posting.
The Marcigny monastery was of special note due to the fact that Hugues maintained the doctrine of St Benedict of Nursia that nuns should carry out manual labour like monks did in their [sign in to see URL] was the case for the whole of the 11th and 12th Centuries but was eliminated in the 13th with the introduction of men to do that work.
It would be interesting to know if there were any views expressed by the key leaders such as the Conqueror,the Red Lanfranc,Warenne,Adela et alia on this matter.

Lydia Giles,Sammy (both in personal capacity)
Apr/29/2005, 4:43 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Lydia,I was in Cluny last year and can tell you that Hugues de Cluny is still held in high regard by the 'cognoscenti'.

Bill H (personal capacity)
Apr/30/2005, 1:13 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Bill,Lydia
Also of note is that he wrote a letter to Philippe 1 stating his concern about the death of the Red leaving no doubt that the circumstances of it were very disturbing.

CT Vice Chairperson (personal capacity)
May/12/2005, 5:53 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


A recent 12th Century “print” I have viewed throws new light on the politico-religious relation of forces between Hugues de Cluny and one of Cluny Abbey’s former monks, Pope Urban 11. It’s called the Chronicon Cluniacense and is quite [sign in to see URL] is set sometime after 1088 when Urban became Pope.(interestingly Urban’s former name amongst others was Odo de Lagery .1088 was the year that Odo de Bayeux and Curthose led the Counter-Revolution against the Red).One part of it is, quite simply, in it’s historical context, awesome.
It shows what appears to be a consecration of the abbey by Urban. He is on the left, with his grim-faced entourage, grimly making the two-fingered consecration sign exuding a fierce admonishment, holding his pastoral staff upright almost like a warrior holds a spear. Hugues stands on the right holding his pastoral staff across his body in a defensive manner almost like a shield. His devout entourage look suspicious and fearful as they eye Urban. And Hugues looks depressed, fearful and a bit quizzical.
What this picture is depicting is a burning conflict of interests.
During the 1090’s, Urban gave tacit support to the infamous counter-revolutionary Anselm against the Red when that archbishop of Canterbury refused to pay what he could afford to finance the Red’s expansion of the Revolution in Normandy before 1096. There is an even more important factor. Philippe 1, King of the Franks, had been frequently at odds with Urban, but after 1096 Philippe became the staunchest supporter of Urban. The unifying element here is The First Crusade. That thoroughly Counter-Revolutionary venture was launched by Urban at Clermont in 1095.
The Red gave it no financial or ideological support.
As well as his unflinching commitment to export The Norman Revolution, the fact that there was an Anti-Pope,Clement 111, commanding significant support and reflecting, in a distorted way, the revolutionary warfare raging in Northern Europe made the Red’s policy that more defensible and laudable in wider-European circles. Philippe 1 was pro-Crusade. Philippe 1 was a prime-mover in the plot to assassinate the Red in 1100. The letter from Hugues to Philippe 1 after the Red’s assassination,which is already mentioned on this Topic, expressing a couched concern at the Red’s suspicious demise makes it apparent that he knew the alliance of forces that had led to the assassination.

The Chronicon Cluniacense deserves as wider viewing as possible since it is pregnant with meaning concerning an episode in Cluny’s history that contradicts its revolutionist significance to the Conqueror, the Red and Warenne pre and post 1058-66. The fact that PopeUrban 11 was a product of Cluny is not the [sign in to see URL] fact that Cluny was the largest church-abbey in Europe and beyond (before the construction of St Peter’s in Rome) is not the [sign in to see URL] reason is basic. As my granny used to say, ‘there is a rotten apple in every barrel’. Even as Abbot, Hugues could not vet people infallibly. And Pope Urban was supported, to some extent, by the politically confused Norman leadership in Southern Italy and Sicily as well as openly Counter-Revolutionary forces like Philippe 1,Curthose,Odo etc.

What inspires, is that Hugues was not contaminated by that ‘rotten apple’ and instead stayed strong in the Cluniacist principles which inspired Cluny and Marcigny and generates profound understanding of how central it was to the Revolutionism-Cluniacism as a foundation stone of The Norman Revolution 1058-1100.

Martin Tilston, First Secretary (personal capacity)
Mar/19/2006, 11:12 am Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Red, on this one occasion, I have copy/pasted- just like you always do(to show off to your laughably geeky and maligned 'forum'). This information is from the Catholic Encyclopaedia..., or are you going now to disagree with the same church you have appraised for your own amusement?;-

(CLUNI, CLUGNI, or CLUGNY)

The earliest reform, which became practically a distinct order, within the Benedictine family. It originated at Cluny, a town in Saone-et-Loire, fifteen miles north-west of Macon, where in 910 William the Pious, Duke of Aquitaine, founded an abbey and endowed it with his entire domain. Over it he placed St. Berno, then Abbot of Gigny, under whose guidance a somewhat new and stricter form of Benedictine life was inaugurated. The reforms introduced at Cluny were in some measure traceable to the influence of St. Benedict of Aniane, who had put forward his new ideas at the first great meeting of the abbots of the order held at Aachen (Aix-la-Chapelle) in 817, and their development at Cluny resulted in many departures from precedent, chief among which was a highly centralized form of government entirely foreign to Benedictine tradition. The reform quickly spread beyond the limits of the Abbey of Cluny, partly by the founding of new houses and partly by the incorporation of those already existing, and as all these remained dependent upon the mother-house, the Congregation of Cluny came into being almost automatically. Under St. Berno's successors it attained a very widespread influence, and by the twelfth century Cluny was at the head of an order consisting of some 314 monasteries. These were spread over France, Italy, the Empire, Lorraine, England, Scotland, and Poland. According to the "Bibliotheca Cluniacensis" (Paris, 1614) 825 houses owed allegiance to the Abbot of Cluny in the fifteenth century. Some writers have given the number as 2000, but there is little doubt that this is an exaggeration. It may perhaps include all those many other monasteries which, though no joining the congregation, adopted either wholly or in part the Cluny constitutions, such as Fleury, Hirschau, Farfa, and many others that were subject to their influence.

During the first 250 years of its existence Cluny was governed by a series of remarkable abbots, men who have left their mark upon the history of Western Europe and who were prominently concerned with all the great political questions of their day. Among these were Sts. Odo, Mayeul, Odilo, and Hugh, and Peter the Venerable. Under the last named, the ninth abbot, who ruled from 1122 to 1156, Cluny reached the zenith of its influence and prosperity, at which time it was second only to Rome as the chief centre of the Christian world. It became a home of learning and a training school for popes, four of whom, Gregory VII (Hildebrand), Urban II, Paschal II, and Urban V, were called from its cloisters to rule the Universal Church. In England the Cluniac houses numbered thirty-five at the time of the dissolution. There were three in Scotland. The earliest foundation was that of the priory of St. Pancras at Lewes (1077), the prior of which usually held the position of vicar-general of the Abbot of Cluny for England and Scotland. Other important English houses were at Castleacre, Montacute, Northampton, and Bermondsey.

After the twelfth century the power of Cluny declined somewhat, and in the sixteenth century it suffered much through the civil and religious wars of France and their consequences. The introduction also of commendatory abbots, the first of whom was appointed in 1528, was to some extent responsible for its decline. Amongst the greatest of its titular prelates were Cardinals Richelieu and Mazarin, who tried to restore it to some of its former greatness, though their efforts did not meet with much success. Claude de Vert, Prior of Saint-Pierre, Abbeville (d. 1708), was another would-be reformer of the congregation, inspired no doubt by the example of the Maurists.

The abbey-church of Cluny was on a scale commensurate with the greatness of the congregation, and was regarded as one of the wonders of the Middle Ages. It was no less than 555 feet in length, and was the largest church in Christendom until the erection of St. Peter's at Rome. It consisted of five naves, a narthex, or ante-church, and several towers. Commenced by St. Hugh, the sixth abbot, in 1089, it was finished and consecrated by Pope Innocent II in 1131-32, the narthex being added in 1220. Together with the conventual buildings it covered an area of twenty-five acres. At the suppression in 1790 it was bought by the town and almost entirely destroyed. At the present day only one tower and part of a transept remain, whilst a road traverses the site of the nave. The community of the abbey, which had numbered three hundred in the thirteenth century, dwindled down to one hundred in the seventeenth, and when it was suppressed, in common with all the other religious houses in France, its monks numbered only forty.


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Mar/20/2006, 3:38 am Link to this post Send Email to Housecarl 1066   Send PM to Housecarl 1066
 
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


TWTRF,what about this eh?
Revolutionary stuff what! From
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Glossary
Cluny (adjective: Cluniac)
The reformed house of Cluny, Burgundy, was a product of the tenth-century monastic reform movement and came to dominate monasticism in the tenth and eleventh centuries. Cluny founded new houses and also reformed existing Benedictine communities; it effectively formed a separate order within the Benedictine Order (i.e. it functioned as a sub-set of the Benedictines). The Golden Age of Cluny faded during the eleventh century, when it was criticised for its excessive liturgy and for amassing excessive wealth. The Cistercians, who emerged at this time, stood against the indulgences and excesses of Cluny; a war of polemics developed between the White Monks and the Black Monks of Cluny.
This sounds just like Billy the Fat's revolution!
'The Golden Age of Cluny faded during the eleventh century, when it was criticised for its excessive liturgy and for amassing excessive wealth.'

Athelstan( as Warrior of the Hicce)



Last edited by Athelstan937, Mar/20/2006, 12:05 pm
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Oh oh, Athelstan- now we've gone and done it-
 
We've dared to respond to yet another of WTRF's self-brainwashing diatribes, this time in the 'style'(?) of WTRF (deliberately copy/pasted plagiarism which is thinly disguised as historical debate!)

Anyone would think that this is a democracy where folks could express opposing opinions, and...(gulp)...dare to disagree?

Strange how these "revolutionaries" pick and choose what they want to believe, and then stay silent when contested?

Last edited by Housecarl 1066, Mar/20/2006, 5:24 pm


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Mar/20/2006, 5:24 pm Link to this post Send Email to Housecarl 1066   Send PM to Housecarl 1066
 
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Bravo Martin! I have not seen the Cluniacense but your description and contextual reference are [sign in to see URL] often, Hugues does not get justice in terms of his importance to the Conqueror and his leadership's implementation of Cluniciast tenets in [sign in to see URL]'s emphasis was above all political at the level of his role as Archbishop of [sign in to see URL] course, he was a top cadre and [sign in to see URL] is the ideological helm that the Conqueror never failed to turn to in vital matters of how the institutionalisation of Bec-type monasticism was to be established in [sign in to see URL] de Fecamp of course was influential too but he did not found Cluny. I have tried to acquire copies of a transcript of that famous letter to the Frankish King without success but it is absolutely central to understanding why he was so sympathetic to what happened to the Red and Philippe's nefarious part in it. Hugues was a man who never balked at standing for original principles rather than the grotesque revisions of Urban whose ultimate expression was the bloodbath in Jerusalem [sign in to see URL], it was no accident that one of the first through the gates of that blighted city was Robert Courtheuse basking in its Counter-Revolutionary mire.
Athelstan Houscarl Mousteriana
Your references to Martin's posting seem to say "why do you not agree with us?".Well, I and Martin do [sign in to see URL] cite evidence which sees Cluny from one perspective with which we happen to [sign in to see URL] supposedly exhaustive Catholic Encyclopaedia quote fails to mention Marcigny which Hugues founded as the first Cluniacist [sign in to see URL] we should dismiss the role of more than half the human race-women, to accommodate your disagreement with us? Certainly not! Cluny "fading"? that is pure [sign in to see URL] is no evidence in Normandy-Angleland that the Cluniacist tenets founded during and after The Norman Revolution were fading, indeed they were in very good [sign in to see URL] is one reason why the Red was so confident in putting that renegade Anselm in his [sign in to see URL] the lead of the Conqueror, he never forgot how much Hugues was central ideologically to Cluniacism and that support was reciprocated in that courageous letter to Philippe 1 after the Red's assassination.I do not have any difficulty with your presentation of alternative facts but interpretation is at the source of many [sign in to see URL] Catholic Encycopaedia shuns historical context for its own belief [sign in to see URL] its standpoint that is perfectly in [sign in to see URL] Forum does not share the majority views of The Catholic [sign in to see URL] you? its not clear that by reproducing your extracts here what your views are so I deduce you swallow that belief system's view wholesale.

Drogo (personal capacity)
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


quote:

The Catholic Encycopaedia shuns historical context for its own belief system



And you arrogant idiots don't, Red?

This entire board is still awaiting responses to the historical facts that you got woefully wrong, but refuse to acknowledge- despite reading our posts that you morons pretend not to!





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Mar/22/2006, 6:37 am Link to this post Send Email to Housecarl 1066   Send PM to Housecarl 1066
 


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