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mousteriana Profile
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Athelstan:

"Harrowing" and "harrying" probably stem from the same root. I just wanted to point out that the event you refer to is usually referred to as the Harrying of the North. And although there are some people who argue that the Harrying of the North wasn't quite the "big deal" some historians make it out to be, the results were, unfortunately, all too real.
Anne G
Mar/28/2006, 1:39 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Athelstan937 Profile
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Anne, I agree .The effect of the genocide indelibly left its mark on the English psyche for centuries.
A dislike for autocratic government.
This reinforced by episodes through the centuries-The Peasants revolt ,The Peterloo Massacre and many more.
The concentration of power in the hands of a few.
The attitude of them and [sign in to see URL] as in London and the 'Provinces'.The attitude that they know what is best for us.
I could go on forever I suppose.
William has been lauded by some commentators and Harold denigrated by others but at the end of the day his usurping of the crown was an act of self centered piracy on his part and that of his [sign in to see URL] the descendents of these people still control many of the institutions of this country.
What is also hard to swallow is the superior attitudes of those apologists for William and the fact that any critique of their views is deemed 'abuse'
Abuse is what the invasion of 1066 and its consequences stood [sign in to see URL] is also the denial of opportunities to express those views.
Disgutedly ,Athelstan.( I' off to the Fens now!!!!)
Mar/28/2006, 11:07 am Link to this post Send Email to Athelstan937   Send PM to Athelstan937
 
Gyrth Profile
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HEAR HEAR


quote:

William has been lauded by some commentators and Harold denigrated by others but at the end of the day his usurping of the crown was an act of self centered piracy on his part and that of his [sign in to see URL] the descendents of these people still control many of the institutions of this country.
What is also hard to swallow is the superior attitudes of those apologists for William and the fact that any critique of their views is deemed 'abuse'
Abuse is what the invasion of 1066 and its consequences stood [sign in to see URL] is also the denial of opportunities to express those views.

*wild applause*
Mar/28/2006, 7:33 pm Link to this post Send Email to Gyrth   Send PM to Gyrth
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


This thread seems to have gone on a diversion
 emoticon Martin,
That is certainly a perceptive view of the Chronicon Cluniacense as I have now had a chance to scrutinise that element of [sign in to see URL] at the centre of it is paramount because it illustrates literally and metaphorically the division of policy you indicate the consecration object (the abbey) separates the opposing parties and it could not be more [sign in to see URL]'s that subtext in a lot of medieval art that was very much standard and can be seen to some extent in The Bayeux Tapestry.A comment to the pro-Usurper opinion: you seem to be implying that all was 'sweetness and light' before 1066 and that all kinds of horrors were unleashed after that date including that well-worn concept 'the-rich-man-in-his-castle-and-poor man-at-his-gate'.That's Hobbitt not [sign in to see URL] is that not one of Tolkien's motivations in writing his 'trilogies' mourning the loss of some kind of Anglo-Saxon (Dane also in this instance?) mythology which he saw his work attempting to 'restore'? Yes it was all very bucolic in his 'Shires' none of the 200-300,000 slaves in sight or even a whiff of the slave [sign in to see URL] none of the civilised methods the slave owners used for controlling the numbers either,like leaving 'excessive' babies in the open to die of [sign in to see URL] wonder Thomas Carlyle was moved to remark, when asked whether the Conqueror had changed Angleland for the better:"What was it before?"

Bill H (personal capacity)

Last edited by thewilliam theredforum2002, Apr/9/2006, 2:36 pm
Apr/9/2006, 2:29 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
Athelstan937 Profile
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


The Runt Forum, here you go again meandering down the paths of historical [sign in to see URL] is you me thinks who are engaging in fantasy.
The basis of my stand against the Norman usurper and his apologists is the lack of any decent evidence that he had a genuine claim, that he had a right to intervene in a country where he had no support.
He did not even have the claim that he was defending Normans in England against any kind of discrimination.
There is no truth in your claim that we claim all was sweetness and light in England before [sign in to see URL] it was/is our land and not for a greedy,meglomaniac,egotistical self appointed agrandising thug to interfere in without any just claim.
What makes your case so idiotic is the claims for some kind of revolution.
Re Thomas Carlyle and the quote you [sign in to see URL] in the interests of genuine debate quote your source and then we can all see the context otherwise stop your stupid pick and mix history.
Athelstan937.
Apr/9/2006, 7:51 pm Link to this post Send Email to Athelstan937   Send PM to Athelstan937
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Athelstan:

FWIW, Thomas Carlyle was one of those Victorian gentleman scholars who thought British history began on October 14, 1066. He had a number of reasons for this, which don't matter much today, as more modern scholarship has dug a lot deeper into the causes and results of what this Forum pleases to call a "revolution". Still, it would be nice to see the context in which this quote was written.
Anne G
Apr/10/2006, 2:45 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Gyrth Profile
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there you go again about slavery...


I'm simply not going to let you get away with spewing nonsense without knowing a thing about the subject.

The Normans did NOT ABOLISH SLAVERY. Period. NOT. DIDN'T HAPPEN! Here's the proof: the Domesday Book itself, and here's the post I made a few weeks ago with the evidence, which was conveniently ignore then just as I'm sure it will be now:

|offset=70]slavery in NORMAN England

Have no idea if that link goes right to that post or not, but it's on something like page 8 of the "William the Conqueror" thread.

Stop with the propaganda, for heaven's sake, it's childish, and INACCURATE.

Geez.
Apr/11/2006, 5:08 pm Link to this post Send Email to Gyrth   Send PM to Gyrth
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Gyrth, Are you denying that slave-owners,slaves,the slave trade and the "peculiar institution" of slavery died out in Angleland by the mid 12th Century under the Norman Kings who ruled from 1066-1100 as Revolutionaries and who, despite the Counter-Revolution of 1100 failed to halt the decline of that barbaric, human condition only begun after Senlac? If you choose to ignore the barbarism inflicted under the Anglo-Saxon-Dane rulers who showed no sign whatsoever of eliminating the "peculiar institution", that just shows how incapable you are of absorbing facts that conflict with your erroneous [sign in to see URL] was annihilated in Angleland under the rule of the Norman Kings.
Hugo (personal capacity)
Apr/11/2006, 9:15 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
Gyrth Profile
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I really wish...


...that I had not allowed your total lack of common sense or respect for historical fact piss me off so much that I typed "Norman." Specifically, neither William nor your precious Rufus abolished slavery, so for pete's sake, STOP SAYING IT and stop implying it - it's not true! AGAIN, slavery was abolished in 1102 - not by William, not by Wiliam II, but by Henry - and calling Henry Norman is debatable since, as someone pointed out, he was born in England... uh, that's E-N-G-L-A-N-D, not "Angleland," which is idiotic.

But that's semantics. The fact - FACT - of the matter is, the abolition of slavery was promoted and preached for by WULFSTAN, the Anglo-Saxon spiritual advisor of King Harold, and it was only through his singular persistance did the slaves in Bristol get released. Is your brain able to wrap itself around that fact? Can you handle it? Can you handle the fact that slaves continued to be held on the very land controlled by William and his family as late as the Domesday Book?

Good grief.
Apr/11/2006, 11:31 pm Link to this post Send Email to Gyrth   Send PM to Gyrth
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: Hugues de Cluny


Gyrth and Hugo(and the rest of the WRTF):

Personally, I'm less interested in who "abolished slavery" in England, than in this silly contention that the events we are discussing were some kind of "revolution". This is a total misconstrual of such facts as exist. Also, like you, I don't much care for "Angleland". But then, these people have been using modern French forms of the Norman names, so I don't suppose they have any real idea of what the English at that time called themselves or the place they were living in. Everything seems to pretty much be filtered through one group's fantasies.
Anne G
Apr/12/2006, 12:49 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 


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