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mousteriana Profile
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Re: Celebrating the death of the fat one


Tarry:

I don't exactly see what difference it makes. . .I mean, the "Norman" ones may have arrived earlier, but you had other ancestors later(e.g. some Huguenots, who may also have been "Norman", for all I know), who arrived later, and you don't really have to figure anything out at all. Unless they all had the same last name or something.
Anne G
Mar/4/2006, 8:03 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Tarry Profile
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Re: Celebrating the death of the fat one


Ann,

It matters to me because it tells me which country they were in previous to the 1500s.

My name appears in England as a result of the Normans and as the Huguenots/Walloons. And just to complicate matters more, there were also Anglo/Saxons with the name. And then there's the Flemish contribution.

It's my guess that the Normans make up the majority of my surname in England. Simply because they had longer to expand their families than most, and being at the top of the food chain made them more prosperous, thus more progeny. But we still have no idea of the extent to which Normans continued to pour into England after the Conquest.

Tarry
Mar/6/2006, 3:06 pm Link to this post Send Email to Tarry   Send PM to Tarry
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: Celebrating the death of the fat one


Tarry:

Considering that a fair number of "Norman" names are actually Germanic or Scandinavian in origin(surprise, surprise), you might well have a case where there were "parallel" or perhaps even identical names in England and France. But this is based on a fairly limited base of information.
Anne G emoticon
Mar/7/2006, 2:43 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
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Re: Celebrating the death of the fat one


That's definitely possible. Since most Normans got their surnames from existing Old French names or placenames there is a lot of commonality.

The habit of bringing their placenames with them to England is a good example of that. My last name was likely at one time to have been de Thierri in Normandy. I have a record of the Anglized version of de Tarri existing in 1261. This family may have been connected to a Norman well-to-do family named Mandeville.

Tarry
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Athelstan937 Profile
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Re: Celebrating the death of the fat one


This is so.My surname 'Barnes' someone once told me was Norman in origin (I nearly topped myself).But investigations have shown that it probably was originally from the Norse for warrior.Originally many of my ancestors came I believe from the Cumbria area.
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mousteriana Profile
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Re: Celebrating the death of the fat one


Athelstan and Tarry:

This could well be true, if your people came from Cumbria --- there was strong Norse influence there. OTOH, a lot of really common names in English are derived from French ones which became "popular" *after* 1066.
Anne G
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Re: Celebrating the death of the fat one


"Ealdred:

Didn't know "Billy the Fat" died Sept 9. I guess that's as good a date as any to celebrate *something*, if you want to celebrate. In any case, the words put in "Billy's" mouth were probably not his, but they certainly do come from the pen of Orderic Vitalis, who was half-English and had English sympathies(Oh, BTW, just about *everybody* condemned the "Harrying of the North", which is what William was supposedly referring to on his deathbed.
Anne G"

I find it interesting that Wace, hardly pro-English, managed to attribute a similar speech to William; the former canon of Bayeux may have used Orderic, or it may simply be that even the Norman tradition accepted the brutality and 'legality' of the Conquest. It should be noticed that the changing of the rubric of the 'Brevis relatio' may imply that William's hereditary claim to the throne was no longer viewed as valid (see Van Houts, Camden Miscellany XXXIV).
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mousteriana Profile
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Re: Celebrating the death of the fat one


Thjodolf:

What Orderic Vitalis(and perhaps Master Wace also) did was very commonly done at that time. Namely, the monks writing the chronicles would put speeches, based on "classical" modles, in the mouths of contemporaries or near contemporaries. This is what Orderic did with William's supposed "deathbed repentance". It may well be that Wace used similar "classical" sources and came up with much the same speech. In any case, Wace, I think, was even later than Orderic. And yes, I've read the van Houts piece on this. In fact, I have a hard copy somewhere.
Anne G
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Housecarl 1066 Profile
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Re: Celebrating the death of the fat one


Anne

The fat, oversensitive and greedy bastard duke- with a family of sons, half-brother and uncles that revolted against him- would have hagiographers and apologists praising his every corrupt and dreamt-up move, wouldn't he? And invent excuses for his unjustified invasion.

Just look at the simple-minded brainwashing of WTF (Acronym for 'What the...'??)- the same kind of arrogant, factless and maligned tripe that a mardy child would come out with- and in the same irrational and erratic style!

Deep down- if WTRF does have a deep, they must know that they're factually wrong and imbalanced, but that they enjoy winding up the more intelligent and mature people(that's all of the rest of us!) with their deliberately warped fascism...


Last edited by Housecarl 1066, Mar/17/2006, 7:21 pm


---
http://1066andallthat.forumfree.co.uk/
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