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mousteriana Profile
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Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


Drogo and Hugo:

This strikes me as such a distorted twisting of whatever facts exist in this case, as to be more or less laughable. Where on earth do you get your information? Or are you reading Orderic Vitalis out of context, too?
Anne G
Apr/15/2006, 5:46 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Athelstan937 Profile
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Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


Runt Forum,Rufus was assassinated because he was a epidemic of cruelty,murder and self agrandisement in a land where plagues had become the [sign in to see URL] Henry realised this to be the situation and to his credit got rid of the virus!
Athelstan937
Apr/16/2006, 9:47 am Link to this post Send Email to Athelstan937   Send PM to Athelstan937
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


Athelstan:

I don't know about William "Rufus" himself, other than he seems to have been a rather crude sort of person, although apparently militarily competent. But he seems to have promoted and surrounded himself with some pretty wretched people. Ranulf Flambard was one. And then there was the more or less unspeakable Robert Belleme/Montgomery. . . .He was so bad that apparently parrents told their kids to be good or the Earl of Shrewsbury would get them!
Anne G
Apr/16/2006, 10:51 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Gyrth Profile
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oh my goodness...


I just read about Robert de Belleme this Wiki article. Don't know his sources, but wow... what a twisted psycho.
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Apr/18/2006, 12:28 am Link to this post Send Email to Gyrth   Send PM to Gyrth
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


Gyrth:

Robert Belleme(judging by what I read in that same article) sounds like he was sick, sick, sick! No wonder parents of the time threatened their bratty kids with him! If he were living in "modern" times, he would definitely be considered a "case". But OTOH, his mother, Mabel Talvas, also had a bad reputation(she was supposed to have been a sorceress or something --- among other things), so maybe Robert got his proclivities from her.
Anne G
Apr/18/2006, 5:48 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


David C. Douglas’ book “William the Conqueror” is an immense source of satisfaction to read and for those who defend The Norman Revolution, 1066-1100, without naturally,from our Forum’s perspective, ‘dotting every i and crossing every t’ in it, to coin a phrase. His work provides many memorable facts expressed in an inimitable style which is a delight to read. Objectively, the ideological debt that is owed to his book is best acknowledged by extracts such as the following, where he describes a key aspect of the situation following Senlac.

- The fate of the Old English nobility during these years was in truth catastrophic, and its downfall is one of the best documented social transformations of the eleventh century. The three great battles of 1066 in England had taken a heavy toll of this class, and those who escaped the carnage of Fulford, Stamford Bridge, and Hastings, the defeated supporters of a lost cause, faced a future which could only be described as harsh and bleak- [p266]
-
 The evidence that David C. Douglas describes regarding ‘social transformations of the eleventh century’ he cites as being acquired from F.M. Stenton, ‘English Families and the Norman Conquest’ ([sign in to see URL]., Transactions,series 4,vol XXV1(1944),pp 1-17) and from our data , that work is also well worth reading.

CT, Vice Chairperson, S. Walsh, Sammy (all in personal capacity)








Last edited by thewilliam theredforum2002, Apr/20/2006, 1:47 pm
Apr/20/2006, 1:37 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


WRTF;

In the first place, what happened after Hastings wasn't a revolution. It was basically a grabfest! And William's, uh, associates did all the grabbing, at the espense, more or less, of the English. They tended to follow the legal
forms which would allow them to "grab", but they did not follow the spirit of the laws then in place. The Old English nobility was essentially killed off or squeezed out, with a few notable exceptions.

RE David Douglas: His book is gold mine of information about William and the period ini general. And reading it is quite worthwhile, IMO. But like everything else concerning this period, it should not be taken as the one, true, holy and only source of information about this historical period. In order to get a fair picture of what was going on, one has to read a variety of sources, including, whenever possible, the "primary sources". Have you done that?
Anne G
Apr/20/2006, 9:02 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Gyrth Profile
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the amazing thing, WTF...


...is that you applaud the destruction of the "Old English nobility" for the benefit of yet another set of aristocrats, these being Norman - land transferred from the rich to the rich, or even worse, from the rich to the brutal mercenaries who serve the rich... why is that so wonderful? The rich or wannabe rich of Normandy - a land less prosperous than England - crossing the channel and making themselves richer off the blood of the English. Why are the deaths of so many Englishmen so pleasing to you? Not only that, but a "revolutioin" usually means that the common people benefit. This is spectacularly untrue after 1066; the common people died off in droves as they were starved, had their villages burned or confiscated, and their land taken. Yet you glorify all that bloodshed and misery and have the temerity to call it a "revolution." As Anne says, it was no revolution, it was the theft of land and wealth by blood, and you manage to rationalize it and cloak it in religiosity.

Good grief.
Apr/21/2006, 3:46 am Link to this post Send Email to Gyrth   Send PM to Gyrth
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


Gyrth and WRTF:

I'm a little less polite. I call what happened after 1066 a grabfest!
In any case, Gyrth, you made a rather profound observation. A lot of the people who "came over with William" weren't very high on the food chain, so to speak, in Normandy. IOW, their origins were as "lesser" lords of one kind or another. Some were little more than mercenaries looking for an opportunity. Since the standards of behavior at this time tended to be rather low to say the least, this wasn't consideder excessively odd. But some of these people managed to enrich themselves rather spectacularly. And a number of the m did so by somehow or other being appointed as sheriffs! Which is one reason why English sheriffs acquired a distinctly bad reputation and is probably the genesis of the villainous Sheriff of Nottingham in the later Robin Hood legends.
Anne G
Apr/22/2006, 4:43 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
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Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


Anne G, Gyrth

Even if one entertains your rather puerile use of the word 'grabfest' instead of the adult description,perhaps you would name one revolution in History,whether it be from above or below, which did not involve,partially or totally,the expropriation of the land and wealth of the ruling class that had outlived its usefulness to History?
Regarding your reference to the 'common people', if you do not understand that the common people learned from their Norman, revolutionary leaders when,for example, they saw the elimination of Slavery in Angleland/England by the middle of the 12th Century,under The Norman Kings, then your ignorance and credulity is truly lamentable and probably beyond cure.

Lydia Giles,Chairperson (personal capacity)
Apr/22/2006, 10:45 am Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 


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