Runboard.com
You're welcome.
Community logo






runboard.com       Sign up (learn about it) | Sign in (lost password?)

Page:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 

 
mousteriana Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 03-2005
Posts: 936
Karma: 6 (+6/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


WRTF:

Again, are you serious? When is a "revolution from above" a revolution. There used to be comedies about "South American revolutions", but that was before most countries in South America grasped that they had a right to democratic societies. The Normans were under no such philosophical burden. And a "revolution from above" is a contradiction in terms.
Anne G
May/9/2006, 11:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
thewilliam theredforum2002 Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 03-2004
Posts: 484
Karma: -5 (+2/-7)
Reply | Quote
Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


The Vexin was always a province of The Kingdom Of The Franks which was of pivotal importance in the struggle to export The Norman Revolution(1058-1100) to the remainder of that Kingdom and its king, Philippe 1. What we like about the extract below from David C. Douglas’ book ‘William the Conqueror’ ,is how the writer, from his own, unique perspective, ensures that the reader, while seeing the historical facts for what they are, is nevertheless allowed the space to think through historical conclusions concerning those facts. For example here, how conjunctive events (Simon de Crepi) can turn the tide of History for its makers and set them new challenges.
Douglas has just described the aftermath of the Conqueror’s defeat at the Siege of Dol in 1077.

‘The real victor in the French campaigns of these years was in effect the French king. His policy had attained its first objective. The reverse suffered by William at Dol had been due to Philip’s diplomacy and intervention, and William had now been brought to negotiate at a disadvantage. Philip was quick to turn the occasion to his profit, and his opportunity came in the Vexin. There Ralph of Crepi had been succeeded by his son Simon, who had albeit with difficulty maintained his position against the French king. But now he was seized by one of those violent impulses which were so characteristic of the eleventh century. Having obtained in marriage Judith, daughter of Robert 11, count of Auvergne, he chose the occasion of his wedding night to vow himself and his bride to continence, and forthwith renouncing the world, he entered the monastery of Saint-Claude in the Jura. The event, which naturally inspired widespread comment, gave King Philip the opportunity he had so long desired. He immediately occupied the Vexin, and thus extended his demesne up to the Norman frontier on the Epte. The act constituted a new menace to Normandy, but Duke William in his present circumstances could do nothing to prevent it. He was perforce to acquiesce in the change, though in the sequel he was to meet his death in trying to reverse it.’
[ Page 235]

Dinsdale, Lydia Giles, Chairperson, John G (all in personal capacity)

May/14/2006, 1:11 pm Link to this post Send Email to thewilliam theredforum2002   Send PM to thewilliam theredforum2002
 
mousteriana Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 03-2005
Posts: 936
Karma: 6 (+6/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


WRTF:

You people are still doing the "same old same old". IOW, you are either (a)totally misreading and misunderstanding what Douglas had to say --- this was background material leading up to William's takeover of
England --- and/or (b) you have not really answered my question, except by irrelevant quote mining.
Anne G
May/14/2006, 8:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Housecarl 1066 Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 02-2006
Location: Northern-most Saxon border.
Posts: 620
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


Yep- sums the WTF moron up- pretencious and pompous block paragraphs that are plagiarised, copied and pasted as if he had just dreamt them up himself!

If he actually is a forum why doesn't he have his own website? And why register as a single person if so- what, do all fictional ten WTF's all huddle around ONE computer???emoticon

The only bits he adds are the retarded mentions of 'revolutions' etc etc that many people I know have laughed at, also this forum emoticon

Last edited by Housecarl 1066, May/14/2006, 8:34 pm


---
http://1066andallthat.forumfree.co.uk/
May/14/2006, 8:30 pm Link to this post Send Email to Housecarl 1066   Send PM to Housecarl 1066
 
mousteriana Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 03-2005
Posts: 936
Karma: 6 (+6/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


Housecarl:

To be absolutely fair, I don't think the stuff WRTF quoted was plagiarized. He/she/they/it did acknowledge that David Douglas wrote what he wrote. The trouble with the quote is, that it is basically out of context, doesn't really say what WRTF says it does(and Douglas isn't talking "revolutions" anyway), and is apparently twisted to fit whatever agenda WRTF is proposing. Which, IMNSHO, is bad enough for people who are claiming to have an entirely new idea about this period.
Anne G emoticon
May/15/2006, 7:01 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Gyrth Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 02-2006
Posts: 123
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
Reply | Quote
not that it will be acknowledged or accepted...


...by those who continue to misuse the word deliberately to suit their glorification of an imperialist tyrant, but the following is the definition of R-E-V-O-L-U-T-I-O-N:

"A fundamental change in political organization; especially : the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another BY THE GOVERNED."

BY THE GOVERNED. Get it? THE GOVERNED. THAT is the definition of "revolution," and it does not, never has, and never will apply to the invasion of a sovereign nation by another entity. EVER. PERIOD. FINIT.

May/15/2006, 5:34 pm Link to this post Send Email to Gyrth   Send PM to Gyrth
 
mousteriana Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 03-2005
Posts: 936
Karma: 6 (+6/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: not that it will be acknowledged or accepted...


Gyrth:


This is one of the reasons why, when Thomas Paine wrote Common Sense in 1776, he inclulded the following quote:

“A French bastard landing with an armed Banditti and establishing himself king of England against the consent of the natives is in plain terms a very paltry rascally original. It certainly hath no divinity to it.”
Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776

Incidentally, Common Sense was instrumental in setting off the American Revolution. The colonies were "the governed" at the time.
Anne G
May/15/2006, 7:58 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
Housecarl 1066 Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 02-2006
Location: Northern-most Saxon border.
Posts: 620
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: not that it will be acknowledged or accepted...


quote:

The colonies were "the governed" at the time



Yes, by the descendants of the same aristocratic noble families that ousted, outlawed and killed the Anglo-Saxon nobles post-1066.

Meanwhile, the ordinary English people in the late 18thC(before and after!) suffered in the slums of England(umpteen squalid families squashed together in one hovel);- penniless, ragged, diseased and dying prematurely either there, or being under the brutal discipline of the British army/navy abroad...forging an Empire for those same wealthy rulers...

And the Welfare state was born after WWII...lucky us?

---
http://1066andallthat.forumfree.co.uk/
May/15/2006, 8:51 pm Link to this post Send Email to Housecarl 1066   Send PM to Housecarl 1066
 
Gyrth Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 02-2006
Posts: 123
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
Reply | Quote
great find, Anne, I love that quote...!


...I remember reading "Common Sense" in college; he's been sort of maligned in recent times, hasn't he?

Housecarl, I hadn't thought of it that way, but reading your post made "Tess of the D'Urbevilles" pop into my mind, specifically John Derbyfield and his spoon... although, that's the reverse of what you're talking about... Hardy seemed to be making a metaphor for the decadence and fall of the nobility, yet in their place rose the nouveau riche Stoke family who paid for the "presitge" of having a "noble" name...

Vaguely remembering all that from reading it years ago... emoticon ...and the movie, of course...!

And you're right about the poor of London being pressed into naval service; read a lot about the pre-Nelson British Navy (tangentially, though, my main interest was the Bounty mutiny).
May/16/2006, 4:23 am Link to this post Send Email to Gyrth   Send PM to Gyrth
 
mousteriana Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user

Registered: 03-2005
Posts: 936
Karma: 6 (+6/-0)
Reply | Quote
Re: Reading the Conqueror and the Red


Gyrth and Housecarl:

As I understand it, by the 18th century, there was a "government" of sorts in England and by exetnsion in the colonies they ruled. But it wasn't much, if any, more representative in its way, than the Norman invaders were in the 11th century. And this, I think, is what Paine was getting at. Furthermore, the American colonists would have understood this full well. I don't know what the British subjects would have thought, had they read Paine. He has gotten very mixed reviews over the years. I do know that he got into an awful lot of trouble toward the end of his life, because he apparently attacked "state religion".But at the time of Common Sense[/i, many people were very much aware of the idea of a "Norman yoke". And this idea was used politically for various purposes by the 18th century. And whatever the truth of ralsehood of the idea of a "Norman yoke", it is an idea that still reverberates in some ways, even today. So I suppose we can be grateful or ungrateful to William & Co. for that.
Anne G
May/16/2006, 4:44 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 


Add a reply

Page:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 





You are not logged in (login)