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Housecarl 1066 Profile
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Re: William the Red


quote:

mousteriana wrote:

Housecarl and all:

I"m really beginning to wonder if they really understand what they're talking about!
Anne G



Anne, he/she/they've proved time and again that he/she/they're as pretencious and arrogant as they are puerile and stupid!

When did Forkbeard die again? emoticon
Who's 'brother' was killed in the 1002 massacre? emoticon
Who spews out third rate cr4p whilst woefully failing to ape Poitiers? emoticon

Etc etc etc etc.... emoticon

---
http://1066andallthat.forumfree.co.uk/
Nov/4/2007, 10:43 am Link to this post Send Email to Housecarl 1066   Send PM to Housecarl 1066
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: William the Red


Housecarl:

Oh, they're "aping" WOP, all right. At least they are aping his adulatory spin-doctoring. They just can't do it as well as he could!
Anne G
Nov/5/2007, 12:03 am Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
WilliamtheRed Forum1 Profile
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Re: William the Red


Oh, they're "aping" WOP, all right. At least they are aping his adulatory spin-doctoring. They just can't do it as well as he could.

Perhaps you would like to tell us when our Forum ever said we could match William of Poitiers?

T.F.Dacres (personal capacity)
Nov/18/2007, 11:52 am Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 
Housecarl 1066 Profile
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Re: William the Red


quote:

WilliamtheRed Forum1 wrote:

Oh, they're "aping" WOP, all right. At least they are aping his adulatory spin-doctoring. They just can't do it as well as he could.

Perhaps you would like to tell us when our Forum ever said we could match William of Poitiers?

T.F.Dacres (personal capacity)



The net-fasists have now admitted their laughable third-rate hagiography at last!

 emoticon

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http://1066andallthat.forumfree.co.uk/
Nov/18/2007, 12:54 pm Link to this post Send Email to Housecarl 1066   Send PM to Housecarl 1066
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: William the Red


WRTF:

I never claimed you could match WOP. Because you can't. You just try to.
Anne G

quote:

WilliamtheRed Forum1 wrote:

Oh, they're "aping" WOP, all right. At least they are aping his adulatory spin-doctoring. They just can't do it as well as he could.

Perhaps you would like to tell us when our Forum ever said we could match William of Poitiers?

T.F.Dacres (personal capacity)



Nov/18/2007, 11:35 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
WilliamtheRed Forum1 Profile
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Re: William the Red


""You just try to" Evidence? or just as I conclude another one of your unsubstantiated opinions mousesteriana.
Gerry Watters (personal capacity)
Dec/1/2007, 11:55 am Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: William the Red


T.F. Dacres and WRTF:

[Perhaps you would like to tell us when our Forum ever said we could match William of Poitiers?

T.F.Dacres (personal capacity)



And perhaps you would like to actually read what I said for a change. I didn't say you folkes "matched" WOP. Because you don't. I said you "matched" his adulatory spin-doctoring. Which isn't quite the same thing as claiming you wrote as well as him.
Anne G
Dec/1/2007, 10:53 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
WilliamtheRed Forum1 Profile
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posticon Re: William the Red


Today marks the 908th Anniversary of the assassination of William the Red and the end of The Norman Revolution, 1058-1100.
What began with a magnificent victory suffused with tactical insight by the Conqueror at Varaville over the counter-revolutionary forces of Henri 1 and Geoffroi Martel was ended by the cowardly plan of The Frankish King, Philippe 1 and his Norman counter-revolutionist supporters led by Henri Beauclerc.
The Red’s aims and objectives were defined on the day of this assassination. By a skilful negotiation in 1099 which brilliantly turned The First Crusade (which he never supported) to his advantage he had acquired the Aquitaine from Duke William IX, Count of Poitou and Duke of Aquitaine (Poitou was the lesser acquisition) . Regaining Normandy ,which the Red had accomplished in 1096, was one thing in the eyes of Philippe 1, who was always eager to avenge the humiliation inflicted on his father Henri 1 by the Conqueror at Varaville , acquiring the Aquitaine was a new level of threat to him altogether. Philippe 1 thus rallied a sufficient assembly of pro-Crusade magnates internal and external to Normandy-Angleland to make the firing of the deadly arrow possible.
I will not banter about whether or not it was Tirel or some other lickspittle, toady hireling. Frankly, it is irrelevant to those who love The Norman Revolution, 1058-1100 and everything it stood for. Indeed, it is only those who, for whatever reasons best known to themselves , have detached themselves from that revolution and its manifold successes in Medieval Europe who make the identity of the assassin a ‘pet interest’. It is a ‘pet’ that must be put down firmly.
On the day of his assassination, the Red declared his intention of spending Xmas in Poitiers ( most recommended incidently to modern travellers)which is in the Poitou and a bridgehead to Aquitaine. The revolutionization of the Aquitaine was to begin and the objective of dividing The Frankish Kingdom between the Red and Philippe 1 (Burgundy regardless as the Burgundians irrespective of their formidable historical record held no fears for the Red) would commence. This would not have stopped Philippe’s nefarious schemes against The Norman Revolution which the Red, like the Conqueror, aimed to spread deep into the Frankish Kingdom and ultimately make himself ruler of it. Another, essential point is that the incentive for someone like Beauclerc to join Philippe’s cowardly coterie was strong. The Red was a vigorous king likely to live long enough to ensure Beauclerc would be too old to rule realistically as a successor. The flipside to that was the fact that he was an inveterate enemy of The Norman Revolution as defined by the Conqueror and the Red. He had no desire to rule in Aquitaine or turn The First Crusade to his advantage. He supported that Crusade and hoped that it would cement Philippe’s rule over The Frankish Kingdom. Some historians have noted that Courtheuse clashed with Beauclerc after 2.8.1100 up to and including the Battle of Tinchebrai in 1106 and this is evidence that there was a significant difference of opinion on how Normandy-Angleland was to be ruled. This approach does not understand that how they viewed it was to be ruled had nothing to do with reviving The Norman Revolution within The Frankish Kingdom but how best to establish a modus vivendi with Philippe1 at the expense of everything the Conqueror and the Red had battled for to make Normandy-Angleland what it was. 2.8.1100 opened the road to the end of Normandy-Angleland and the absorption of Normandy into France in 1204.
Much is made of the fact that Henri 11 (The Angevin) achieved kingly rule in Aquitaine after 1154. Henri 11 battled a Norman king to rule in Angleland/England and ended up defeated in 1189 by Philippe 11. This man, Henri 11, whom historians have lavished with all kinds of attributes, died in his bed not as a victim of assassination. This speaks volumes since it shows that, unlike the Red and his enemy Philippe 1, he did not matter that much in terms of Philippe’s schemes . He knew that the Angevin had no serious intention of overthrowing him. Henri’s success in obtaining the Aquitaine has obscured the fact that the Red achieved it much earlier without receiving any historical acclaim from historians down the centuries(and when you look at the Becket incident you realise that the Red’s just clashes with Anselm show by far a more civilized ruler).
Orderic Vitalis’ account of the Aquitaine episode is pro-the Red but that did not stop later historians from feting Henri for the achievement and eclipsing the Red in the process. Indeed, it is entirely valid to state that, down the centuries, the Red has been presented in a negative light for a matter entirely alien to the real reason: his supposed immorality which was condemned at the Council of Rouen in 1096 (tellingly the very year the Red won back Normandy) by ecclesiastical forces in the form of a resolution condemning long hair as a form of moral degeneration.
 In reality , the only thing that matters about 2.8.1100 when it is reduced to its core is: who will rule The Kingdom Of The Franks , the Red or Philippe 1? In comparison with that, who fired the arrow and did the assassination happen at Brockenhurst or Beaulieu etc is frankly trivial.
In conclusion, I have deliberately chosen in this commemoration of Normandy’s greatest Duke and Angleland/England’s greatest King, to sideline the normal emphases( not least the one pertaining to Hugues de Cluny, Cluny Abbey and Marcigny-sur-Loire Convent and how it related to the Red’s ‘Great Debate’ initiative of blessed memory) that colour what my egregious predecessors as Chairperson and our Forum’s eminent members in general make, not out of some misplaced sense of ‘aspirant originality’ or because those emphases are not salient and wholly apposite but because I believe from an intellectual-spiritual vantage point that shifting the focus for scrutiny of one of the special days in the calendar of The Norman Revolution, 1058-1100 will ensure that the context of those emphases which our Forum cherish will be enriched by the specific weight of historical gravity. In so doing, I continue firmly our Forum’s unyielding assertion of the historical profundity of 2.8.1100 and its pivotal relationship with the historical phase that concluded so shamefully in 1204. In truth, it could all have been so different.

Bill H, Chairperson (on behalf of WTRF)
Aug/2/2008, 11:17 am Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 
mousteriana Profile
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Re: William the Red


Bill H. and WRTF:

It's news to me that William II was "Angleland's" greatest king. . . . Most historians don't think so. But that's another story.
Anne G
Aug/2/2008, 8:01 pm Link to this post Send Email to mousteriana   Send PM to mousteriana
 
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Re: William the Red


Bill H,
We are highly impressed by your core insight.Whoever fired the arrow did it in full knowledge of all the strategic consequences which were bound up entirely with who was to rule TKOTF.It is irritating that so much attention is given to eg the angle of the arrow fired and did it bounce off a tree or deer emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon emoticon that it is refreshing to have its context put so clearly in the foreground.A thousand thanks!

Marita Keel,First Secretary,Steve Walsh,Pereobu,John G,Becky (all in personal capacity)
Aug/3/2008, 2:35 pm Link to this post Send Email to WilliamtheRed Forum1   Send PM to WilliamtheRed Forum1
 


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